Apisto Food
Contents:
- Re:Bloodworms
by huntley/ix.netcom.com (Wright Huntley ) (Fri, 7 Mar 1997)
- Slightly Off Topic Question
by Mike Jacobs <mfjacobs/geocities.com> (Fri, 04 Jul 1997)
- More food
by <kl/jach.hawaii.edu> (Tue, 1 Jul 1997)
- RE: RE Bloodworms - (Was Altispinosas and Rams)
by Tom Mroz <tmroz/art-inc.com> (Fri, 7 Mar 1997)
- Flakes and apistos
by Wright Huntley <huntley/ix.netcom.com> (Tue, 9 Sep 1997)
- Flakes and apistos
by huntley/ix.netcom.com (Wright Huntley ) (Tue, 9 Sep 1997)
- Fwd: Flakes and apistos
by "Ed Pon" <edpon/hotmail.com> (Tue, 09 Sep 1997)
- poor diet?
by djhanson/calweb.com (Wed, 13 Jan 1999)
- poor diet?
by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com> (Wed, 13 Jan 1999)
- general diet and feeding frequency questions
by BigJohnW/webtv.net (John Wubbolt) (Tue, 2 Feb 1999)
- beefheart
by "Newman, L" <Lee_Newman/bc.sympatico.ca> (Fri, 25 Dec 1998)
- Induce a break?
by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com> (Fri, 07 Apr 2000)
- Feeding
by Frauley/Elson <fraulels/minet.ca> (Sat, 10 Jun 2000)
- RE: Cyclop-eeze one more time.
by "William Vannerson" <William_Vannerson/ama-assn.org> (Tue, 22 Aug 2000)
- Cyclop-eeze one more time.
by "Ken Roese Jr." <ken1/iwaynet.net> (Tue, 22 Aug 2000)
- RE: Cyclop-eeze one more time.
by "Bob Clayton" <Bob/amazona.co.uk> (Wed, 23 Aug 2000)
by huntley/ix.netcom.com (Wright Huntley )
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997
To: apisto/aquaria.net
Toado wrote:
>
>Tom Mroz wrote:
>
>> I don't know about what exactly you are getting from Hong Kong, but you
><snip>
>Neither do I <g>. They're not tubifex but after defrosting they don't
>look much like the bloodworm I can collect in the wild, or what you
>describe.
After multiple horror stories about *frozen* bloodworms over the past couple
of years, I have become pretty leery of them. San Francisco Bay Brand
(Sally's) and (I think) Hikari freeze them only if they are alive at the time
of freezing. Bacterial bloom is extremely fast in dead bloodworms, and many of
the SE Asia sources let them lie around decaying before freezing.
Following the advice of those who have experienced the problems, I use only
the two brands mentioned, and only if they have not obviously thawed and
refrozen.
>> As for tubifex and/or blackworms - I never feed mine to anything but
>> corydoras cats, which do not seem to be affected by any of the potential
nasties that the worms can carry.
They are *very* sensitive to the bacteria in bad bloodworms, for I first
learned of the problem from a breeder who specializes in Corys.
>Corys must be tougher than I thought. Must buy some <g>.
Naaah! Tubifex and Black Worms carry no known fish pathogens, according to a
famous veterinary pathologist, but my experience is that feeding them produces
so much active waste the problems are usually due to water-quality degrading
from inadequate changes. Corys may tolerate that a bit better. The fish catch
anything around if they are stressed enough. That's my $0.02.
>I've read apisto's and cory's are a volatile mix -with the cory's ending
>up floating. I've been too concerned by this to actually try. First hand
>experience anyone?.
Yeah.
Apistos have a tough time raising a brood if there are Corys in the tank. When
they sleep, the Corys steal the eggs or even eat the babies. Not a good mix,
IMHO, but I never saw any damage to the Corys. Using a night light only helps,
but stresses the Apistos for lack of sleep. Cory's are like felines and can
hunt at night, dozing during the day.
Wright
--
Wright Huntley (408) 248-5905 Santa Clara, CA USA huntley-at-ix.netcom.com
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by Mike Jacobs <mfjacobs/geocities.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com
Stuart....Boy a whole bunch of questions. Blackworms...........someone check
me on this but they are a different worm from the old 'red tubifex'. I'm not
too sure if it's OK to call them 'black tubifex' or not but a lot of people do
so. In any case they about the same length as the reds, maybe a 'skooch'
longer, but maybe 20% thicker and blackish....if you put them next to a
red there is no doubt which is which. I've been dealing with the red
variety since oh about 1968...........they are good food but they are in my
opinion trouble and haven't used them since the blacks came out. The reds
very dirty and begin to break down,die, very quickly. When the so called
'blacks' came out about 1980 (maybe earlier) people thought not much
better of them than the reds, but now more and more people are beginning
to learn how to handle these worms and the results, in my mind are just
super, fantastic for breeding.
Here's how I keep them. If you make a fist......that's about how much I get
at a time. I put them in a circular 'tupperware' bowl with no top that is
about 6-7" in diameter and maybe 6-7 inches tall. I put enough tap water
in the bowl to just, just not quite cover the wiggling worms. Through
experience I've found it important not to cover them completly...it just
doesn't last as long if you cover them with water. Now, for the next 4-6
days I will take them out of the refrigerator and rinse them vigorously and
let them settle down....15-20 seconds.....maybe 3-4 times, lower the
water to just covering them and put them back in the fridge.......I'll do that
2-3 times a day. There is NO SMELL....leave the top off.....the wife won't
mind after a bit. After the 4-5-6 days when the water rinses as perfectly
clear then and only then do I feed them. If you time your buying you will
always have some worms to feed..............now for the kicker.........how long
do they stay alive you ask??? Honestly I have keept them alive with NO
feeding of the worms of any sort for over a month, they don't die, I will
have fed them all to the fish......rinsing twice a day even after they are
clean.
Folks........I think that worms. of all sorts of kinds, are a staple of our
fishes. I would bet more than a nickle that worms may be as much as
50-60% of fishes diets. I can not remember a fish, except one that was all
but dead, that wouldn't come 'flying from the other side of the tank to fight
for a worm of any sort......white worms, micro-worm for fry, earth
worms, black worms. BUT BE PATIENT UNTIL THEY"RE CLEAN!!!!
Stuart........people will get tired of me talking.......yes I meant a low of 4.8.
I've kept and spawned dwarfs on purpose at 4.5, and spawned discus on
purpose at 5.5, and do you want to spawn wild angels.............put their
water at pH-5.0-5.5 and virtually no hardness.
Prices for R.O. are about 1/2 of your price.....I understand your hesitancy,
But some of these dwarfs can be real 'buggers' and you'll not get any viable
fry without going to some of these extremes.
Sorry guys I get carried away!!!......Have a good 4th........even over there in
England......;-)
Mike
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by <kl/jach.hawaii.edu>
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997
To: Apistogramma mailing List <apisto/majordomo.pobox.com>
Hi,
Try getting hold of micro-worm culture, though your fry may be a bit large
for them by now. As they get older you can move onto grindal worm or
white worm (you usually find some small ones as well the .5" ones that are
super food for conditioning adult apistos. I also have used frozen blood
worm that can be chopped up quite easily using a scalpel blade.
Hope this helps,
Ken.
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by Tom Mroz <tmroz/art-inc.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997
To: "'Apisto/aquaria.net'" <Apisto/aquaria.net>
Toado wrote (in part):
>Then again the only frozen bloodworm I can get come from Hong Kong- Great
>food but I'm suspicious, comments anyone?.
I don't know about what exactly you are getting from Hong Kong, but you can
easily tell the difference between bloodworms (which are midge larvae) and
tubifex worms. Tubifex worms, up close, look like worms. Bloodworms look
more like insect larvae, they have a somewhat hard looking outer skin,
which appears segmented, and they have small appendages at one end. I
have'nt looked close at them recently, so I don't know how better to
explain these appendages. If you get these live, you can further tell the
difference, as tubifex move like worms (sort of in a sinuous manner),
bloodworms move somewhat more like mosquito larvae, in a jerky, twitchy
manner.
I have never heard of anyone having problems with fish being fed
bloodworms, though one must still expect some risk as they are cultured in
fresh water, and therefore, can carry any number of freshwater-based
nasties.
Another risk with bloodworms that people must be aware of is that they can
cause a serious allergic reaction in PEOPLE that are sensitive. Bloodworms
are the only thing I have ever come in contact with that I am allergic to,
and let me tell you, I've got it bad. Over the years (and I have not used
it in about 5 years), I have become so sensitive to them that coming in
contact with tank water days after feed them will cause skin irritation.
Worse yet, I can tell when my favorite store has fed bloodworms to their
stock within the day. After about 15 minutes of looking at tanks, I start
wheezing and my chest constricts - all from what little must be floating
around in the air!
I have seen an article from an allergy specialist that confirms this
allergen, and further suggests that this allergen is closely related to
that of dust mites. So if you know you are allergic to one, be careful
with the other. (I apparently don't have the dust mite problem - yet).
As for tubifex and/or blackworms - I never feed mine to anything but
corydoras cats, which do not seem to be affected by any of the potential
nasties that the worms can carry.
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by Wright Huntley <huntley/ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com
Mike wrote:
>
>
>I'd really like my Apisto. cacatuoides to eat flake flood. I feed them
>baby brine, frone adult brine, frozen blood worms, etc etc. Any
>easy way to 'break them in' to eating flake?? I assume I have
>to only feed flake until they get the idea that flake is dinner
>and eat it or goto thier cave until they grow up??
>
I have been able to get the most finicky killifish to eat dry food
under two conditions. [My Apistos always took to dry food pretty
easily.]
First, there needed to be enough fish in the tank to get a feeding
frenzy started. [A little hungry always helps, here.] Dither fish, like
Melanotaenia praecox, are a great asset for this purpose.
Second, the food *had* to be tasty to them.
The latter condition seems to be satisfied for all fish by
"Brine-Shrimp Flakes." Not too nutritious, but they all seem to adapt
quickly to them. Once trained, they probably can be switched to
something like Hikari "Oranda Gold" goldfish food, which is pretty well
balanced (super growth food) and a great color enhancer. Micropellets,
or mini-pellets in a hand-held pepper, mill may be needed, especially
for young fish.
It seems to help if you start them young, too.
Good luck,
Wright
--
Wright Huntley (510) 494-8679 Fremont, CA USA huntley-at-ix.netcom.com
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by huntley/ix.netcom.com (Wright Huntley )
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com
Mike wrote:
>
>
>I'd really like my Apisto. cacatuoides to eat flake flood. I feed them
>baby brine, frone adult brine, frozen blood worms, etc etc. Any
>easy way to 'break them in' to eating flake?? I assume I have
>to only feed flake until they get the idea that flake is dinner
>and eat it or goto thier cave until they grow up??
>
I have been able to get the most finicky killifish to eat dry food
under two conditions. [My Apistos always took to dry food pretty
easily.]
First, there needed to be enough fish in the tank to get a feeding
frenzy started. [A little hungry always helps, here.] Dither fish, like
Melanotaenia praecox, are a great asset for this purpose.
Second, the food *had* to be tasty to them.
The latter condition seems to be satisfied for all fish by
"Brine-Shrimp Flakes." Not too nutritious, but they all seem to adapt
quickly to them. Once trained, they probably can be switched to
something like Hikari "Oranda Gold" goldfish food, which is pretty well
balanced (super growth food) and a great color enhancer. Micropellets,
or mini-pellets in a hand-held pepper, mill may be needed, especially
for young fish.
It seems to help if you start them young, too.
Good luck,
Wright
--
Wright Huntley (510) 494-8679 Fremont, CA USA huntley-at-ix.netcom.com
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by "Ed Pon" <edpon/hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com
>From: Michael W McGrath <mcgrath-at-citilink.com>
>I'd really like my Apisto. cacatuoides to eat flake flood. I feed them
>baby brine, frone adult brine, frozen blood worms, etc etc. Any
>easy way to 'break them in' to eating flake?? I assume I have
>to only feed flake until they get the idea that flake is dinner
>and eat it or goto thier cave until they grow up??
>
>Thanks,
> Mike
I've had apistos accept flakes readily, but they always seem to get thin
on it. One local former breeder of apistos was really hot on earthworm
flakes, stating that his apistos will come to the surface for it--I
rarely see apistos go to the top for food. A killifish friend of mine
said that earthworm flake has a lot of fat in it. I tried earthworm
flake for a short time until I ran out of my initial supply and found
that the apistos seem to like it. I did not use it long enough to tell
you about the long-term effects, but the local former breeder of apistos
seemed to be producing a lot of apistos and in good quantity.
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by djhanson/calweb.com
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com
> Their diet is based on blood worms and BS (both frozen). That's all, I
> don't feed my fishes on anything else. Could this lead to a some kind of
> nutrients deficiency in fishes?
Some may not agree with me, Simone, but I would start adding ground
basic flake. It seems to start the fry growing quite rapidly when I was
still breeding the dwarfs. I would always start all my fry out on the
newly hatched baby brine and then after a week start adding ground basic
flake. I would also start doing water changes with straight tap water
after the fry were 2 months old so that when I sold them to the stores,
they wouldn't have a problem with switching from the straight RO to the
stores tap water.
Kaycy
http://www.calweb.com/users/d/djhanson/index.htm
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by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com
Simone,
I also feel that diet is very important, especially variety. Here is what I feed
my fish: marine flake food, pellets (Tetra's old Discus pellet, now with a new
name), frozen adult brine shrimp, frozen blood worms (rarely since my allergies
to it put me out of commission for a whole day after feeding it), and live baby
brine shrimp. I used to feed a wonderful food that we called "frog brittle". It
was a granular food similar to Tetra's discus food. It was designed for feeding
Xenopus (African Clawed) Frogs in laboratory experiments. It has a high
protein/fat diet needed by frogs. Overfeeding this food caused cloudy water, so I
had to be careful, but all my apistos and other fish just loved it. It was cheap,
too, about $50/bag. Unfortunately, it only comes in 50 lb. bags and my source is
out of frog keeping research. I don't have a way of getting 1 lb. bags from her
anymore. Anyone out there know where I can get small quantities of this for a
reasonable price?
Mike Wise
Simone Vicini wrote:
> Dear apisto lovers,
> I'm at the second succesful spawn of my wild
> nijsseni pair, I always use pure RO water for water changes and I also have
> plants in the tank, since they grow quite well I'm almost sure that the RO
> water I put in has some mineral contents.
>
> I actually don't know if fishes take mineral nutrients directly from the
> water and in wich quantity, so I'm not sure if my question will be
> plausible.
>
> I'm starting to see that my nijsseni are having problems with their fins,
> they are getting transaparent and thiner, this is probably due to the fact
> that I have never looked at my fishes as today, but the doubt remains.
>
> Their diet is based on blood worms and BS (both frozen). That's all, I
> don't feed my fishes on anything else. Could this lead to a some kind of
> nutrients deficiency in fishes? and if possible, can this be the reason why
> I saw this abnormality in the fins of my fishes?
>
> I was thinkng that probably my plants (Hygrophyla, Java moss,
> Ceratophyllum) are sucking up all the calcium and other elements living to
> the fishes a too little quantity, Is this possible or am I just dreaming?
>
> Should I add calcium carbonate and magnesium sulfate to the tank?
>
> Should I change the diet of my fishes?
>
> Thanks for your help
> Simone Vicini (svicini@lcnet.it)
>
> PS From Italy where keeping P.ramirezi has become quite impossible due to
> the fact that this species has become more and more susceptible to illness
> and more and more delicate
>
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by BigJohnW/webtv.net (John Wubbolt)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com
Hi Mike
I like to feed my Cacatuoide once to twice a day. I'll feed live foods
in the morning and dry foods in the late afternoon or early evening.
They don't always get the second feeding depending on my work schedule.
Live foods like black worms, white worms, daphnia, live brine shrimp are
what I use when available. For dry foods I vary between good flake
foods, tetra bits ( which they love) and or HBH graze.
I think good quality foods are important. Live foods seem to condition
my fish well for spawning. When it comes to feeding just hatched fry
I stay away from those powder foods or liquid fry. My experience is
that they pollute my water quicker. I like to use microworms once the
fry have absorbed their yolk sacs and start feeding, a few days later I
introduce newly hatched brine shrimp to their diet. At the 3 to 4 week
mark I start to crush up tetra bits to a powder and let it sink to the
bottom to feed the fry. I don't add flake food until the fry are about
1/4 inch long. Good luck
Remember different things work for different people. This diet works
well for me as I have several hundred fry of Apisto Cacatuoides in
varying sizes and ages.
John Wubbolt
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by "Newman, L" <Lee_Newman/bc.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com
Andrew Ivanyuk wrote:
>
> Hi!
> So, today I tried to give my fish a little bit of boiled pig liver at
> first time. They accepted it readily, but... contamination of the water was
> awful! The liver made a cloud of clayish color.. So I did not dare to keep
> on this experiment and gave my fish usual portion of shrimp
> Do all such kinds of food pollute water so hard? What is about giving it
> raw?
>
> - Andrey
Hi All,
Feeding mammalian food items (beafheart for example) is not a sensible
practise for two very good reasons; it's hard on the water quality, as
noted above and; mammals store excess protein as "hard" fat, that can be
metabolized at a later time (during periods of fasting) whereas fish
store it as "oil". Fish store oils due to the low "melting" temperature
needed to use it at the comparatively low body temperatures fish enjoy.
Fish can not use mammal fat and therefore it tends to accumulate in the
liver, kidney and depending on the species, pyloric cecae (a part of the
digestive tract). Rams and corys are probably not long-lived enough for
fatty degeneration of the liver (the most common problem that arises
from feeding mammal fat to fish) to occur, but it's possible - you would
need to do a full necropsy to find out.
With the current level of knowledge (limited, I do realize) of the
feeding habits of our aquarium fish in the wild, there are many
substitutes that don't put the health of the fish second to the ease or
cost of feeding.
Thanks to Tom Wojtech, I have re-started to feed a lot of frozen brine
shrimp and the fish look great for it. Shrimp and their larvae probably
provide a significant food source in the wild. On three trips to the
Amazon, we found them everywhere!
Murex makes an enriched frozen brine shrimp that contains high levels of
the particular highly unsaturated fatty acids that fish need (fish need
certain HUFA's in order to make others), also, there are now frozen
Mysis relicta (a freshwater opposum shrimp) that are great to feed dwarf
cichlids (they are a little big, but Apistos are tough!).
While frozen fish foods may cost a little more they better reflect what
the fish feed on in the wild. It's not too often a group of dwarf
cichlids get to tear a cow's heart out, swim off with it, and devour it.
Hope this helps.
Lee Newman
Curator of Tropical Waters
Vancouver Aquarium Marine Science Centre
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by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com
I've found that feeding flake food only does not stop spawning. It only reduces
the number of viable fry. Separation of the sexes is the only way to stop them
from breeding - or lowering the temperature to a dangerous level.
Mike Wise
"Beaudry, Kyle : SEN" wrote:
> Since I have had my A. cacatuoides I have fed them frozen and live (BS,
> worms) to induce spawning. Of course, I didn't know what I was in for, now I
> have a tank full of fry that are 1/2 inch and two females in my community
> tank, each with a brood of free-swimmers. If frozen/live induces spawning
> does flake/freeze dried induce a break? I could resort to removing the male
> but I would like to keep him around a while, he is the most beautiful fish
> in the tank. Unfortunately, I don't have the resources to get more tanks. I
> have thought of removing the females but they are both great
> breeders/parents I would hate to have to give them up. How about an
> ovipositor plug?
>
> I guess I will have to decide which to get rid of... ugghhhhh.
> Kyle 'foating on a raft of fry' Beaudry
>
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by Frauley/Elson <fraulels/minet.ca>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com
Christopher R Brightwell wrote:
>
> I was wondering what people are feeding their apistos. I have a group of
> eight in a heavily planted 75 and they don't seem interested in brine
> shrimp at all.
> TIA
> Chris
I feed mine frozen bloodworms as a staple, supplemented by live
whiteworms, very occasional chopped earthworms or ant larvae and a fair
bit of good old-fashioned flake (staple, plankton flake and brine shrimp
flake in rotation).
Freshly freeswimming fry get some live bbs, lots of decapsulated and
some crushed flake. Since I shifted to 'decap.' in the mornings, growth
rates haven't slowed, and I've brought njisseni, taeniata, sp rotpunkt,
macmasteri and sp vielfleck to young adulthood in fair numbers.
-Gary
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by "William Vannerson" <William_Vannerson/ama-assn.org>
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000
To: apisto/listbox.com
>>I mix it with some water and then use a
turkey baster to feed my fry<<
Most folks that have had success with the stuff feewd in the same manner. It suspends the particles long enough for them to get at them and I suspect that swirling motion of the mini-currents that help stimulate the eating behaviour.
Bill Vannerson
McHenry, IL
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/william_vannerson
by "Ken Roese Jr." <ken1/iwaynet.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000
To: apisto/listbox.com
Max,
I have used it with no problems for dorsigers, rams, kribensis, A.
thomasi, cory cats, and angels with no problems. They were a little slow at
first, just kinda picking at it. But with each feeding they got more
aggressive towards it. I also supplemented with Micro Worms and frozen bbs
just to give them a little variety. I just sprinkled it on the water
surface, aften putting clumps in a zip lock and taking the rolling pin to
it, and let it settle down through the water.
Good Luck,
Ken Roese
At 08:59 AM 8/22/00 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>Sorry that I'm bringing up Cyclop-eeze again.
>This food just doesn't work for me.I tried everything Listmembers suggested
>to get the fry used to it.My fish wont eat it, period.I watched them
>spitting it out again this morning. I ended up buying another one pound can
>of BBS eggs .Let me know if you had better luck with it.
>My zwei Pfennige
>Max
by "Bob Clayton" <Bob/amazona.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000
To: <apisto/listbox.com>
Hi,
I use Cyclop-eeze and find it excellent - the fry take it if you put a very
small amount in a syringe with some tank water and squirt it directly above
the fry - they seem to attack it as it swirls around. After a couple of
days you can increase the amount and the fry will eat it however it is
presented but they do not seem to take it if it is floating so always premix
it with water.
I have tried brine shrimp and cyclop-eeze whilst raising two sets of fry and
have found better growth and survival rates on the cyclop-eeze batch. I
also use microworm normally and find this a really good food taken by most
fry although if not supplemented with other things growth is quite slow.
I live in the UK and import Cyclop-eeze from the USA - I order it from
http://www.argent-labs.com/ but you have to buy a box at a time. Also
challenge DHL on the VAT bill as they will cancel it if you say you are a
fish breeder and consequently classed as a farm!
Bob
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-apisto@admin.listbox.com
> [mailto:owner-apisto@admin.listbox.com]On Behalf Of NaturalDTP@aol.com
> Sent: 23 August 2000 11:42
> To: apisto@listbox.com
> Subject: Re: Cyclop-eeze one more time.
>
>
> In a message dated 22/08/00 14:43:44 GMT Daylight Time,
> m.gallade@jdneuhaus.com writes:
>
> > It would be great to find a cheaper
> > alternative to Artemia nauplii that works.
>
> Microworm is great as it lasts 5-6 days in the tank so can be fed
> in excess.
> Grindalworm is much the same and ideal for fry after 2 weeks. I
> worry about
> the nutritional content of the worms so suppliment both with
> frozen BBS and
> crushed flake in suspension. Cyclop-eeze sounds very interesting
> but I don't
> know where I can get it in the UK
>
> Alan W
>
>
> Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing
> List Archives"!
>
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