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Behavior difference between Wild and Domestic-bred Apistos

Contents:

  1. Fwd: Wild or Tank Bred
    by "Ed Pon" <edpon/hotmail.com> (Wed, 03 Sep 1997)
  2. Wild or Tank Bred
    by IDMiamiBob/aol.com (Wed, 3 Sep 1997)
  3. Re: wild-caught fish
    by WndrKdnomo/aol.com (Sat, 14 Feb 1998)
  4. Re: wild-caught fish
    by "Ed Pon" <edpon/hotmail.com> (Fri, 13 Feb 1998)
  5. wild-caught fish
    by anggrek/juno.com (Tsuh Yang Chen) (Sat, 14 Feb 1998)
  6. wild-caught fish
    by Randy or Deb Carey <carey/spacestar.net> (Sat, 14 Feb 1998)

Fwd: Wild or Tank Bred

by "Ed Pon" <edpon/hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com



>From: Len/Geo <szucs-at-total.net>
>
>How much harder is it to breed Wild Apistogramma, than Tank Bred
>> Apistogramma  ?
>>
In my experience, wild apistos are sometimes, not always, easier to 
breed.  Most of the wild apistos that I have had, except in the recent 
year, have come into the hobby somewhat thin.  After fattening up, they 
seem anxious to breed, and the first spawns are generally larger than 
subsequent spawns.  This is probably due to spawns that were "saved up" 
from the harder times.

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Wild or Tank Bred

by IDMiamiBob/aol.com
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

I've had more trouble getting my Cucatoides triple reds to breed than I used
to  with any of the wild apistos I had in the early 80's (though I am doing
well now).  Since triple reds are a hobbyist developed strain, I would say
they are no different.  Just pronide the right water quality and conditions.

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Re: wild-caught fish

by WndrKdnomo/aol.com
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998
To: IVIassacre/aol.com, owner-apisto/listbox.com, apisto/majordomo.pobox.com


In a message dated 2/14/98 3:41:14 AM, IVIassacre-at-aol.com wrote:

<<.is there any real purpose to keeping wild specimens?>>
<< What kind of effect(if any) do aquarists have on
the wild populations of aquarium fish? >>

There are really two points brought up here, and I'll try to address them
seperatly.
1)  Sometimes when a strain has been bred repeatedly the fish start to differ
both physically and behaviorally from wild stock.  This can occur even when
there has been no deliberate attempt to select for given traits, (color,
finnage, etc.)The other reason that many aquarists search out wild
importations is that many fish vary, sometimes dramatically, over their area
of distribution in the wild.  This is seen in many killifish, discus and other
larger cichlids of Central and South America, as well as our Apisto.'s and
Pelvivachromis among many others.
2)  As far as wild collecting adversly affecting wild populations, I think
that in general this is not a problem, although there might be isolated
exceptions. Most of our common aquarium fish have relativly short life spans,
and reproduce in relativly large numbers.  A far more pressing problem is the
loss of habitat.  The danger posed by logging, development, mining, etc. is
far, far greater than the possibility of over collection of a population for
the trade.  
  The greatest danger would probably to long lived species with low rates of
reproduction, especially to those species located at or near the top of the
food chain.
Anyway, that's my 2-cents worth.
Jeff
WndrKdnomo-at-aol.com


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Re: wild-caught fish

by "Ed Pon" <edpon/hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

>
><<.is there any real purpose to keeping wild specimens?>>
><< What kind of effect(if any) do aquarists have on
>the wild populations of aquarium fish? >>
>
There were no domestic stocks available for most of the apistos that we 
have been writing about on this list as recently as two to three years 
ago--so wild stocks are the only source.  Most of these apistos are 
relatively difficult to get because many of the apistos discussed on 
this list are not easy to breed in commercial quantities--I'm doubtful 
that anybody on this list is making very much, if any, money on selling 
the offspring.

If you're familiar with the plight of the Madagascan cichlids and the 
Lake Victorian cichlids,  you would know that the biggest reason for 
their demise is due to man's interference and greed.  Their environments 
are being destroyed by the encroachment of civilization and the tropical 
fish hobby has very little to do with this.  As a matter of fact, the 
domestic fish-keepers, both hobbyists and scientists, are the last hope 
for keeping some of these fish from becoming extinct.  Many of these 
cichlids ste already extinct in their natural environment.  It is hoped 
that one day, many of the captive stocks can be reintroduced into their 
natural range (when man learns to value this planet's natural resources 
more than the gold in his pockets). 



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wild-caught fish

by anggrek/juno.com (Tsuh Yang Chen)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

dear brian,

i don't think you offended anyone.  it is a very valid concern.  i am
actually terribly depressed about the way we humans have been plundering
the rainforests around the world (btw, my interests include orchids and
other plants in addition to fish, that's why i get so depressed about it
-- and we must not forget, there are the native peoples who depend on the
forests too).  however, the collection of fish for the pet trade has not
in most parts been detrimental to the wild fish populations, except in a
few cases where the fish is a food fish in its native habitat and
overfishing has made it scarce, as in the case of the pirarucu (Arapaima
gigas).  that's why i don't think this particular species should be
collected in the wild and sold in a pet shop.  another endangered species
is the asian arowana (Scleropages formosus) which is now only available
legally via captive-breeding.

as for most other fish in the hobby, wild collections have not had
negative impact in their population.  i believe dr. ning labbish chao has
done some studies about the ornamental fish trade in the amazon and
that's what he concluded.  i believe that sustainable and reasonable
exploitation of natural resources is not a bad thing.  wild fish
populations are more threatened by overfishing, deforestation, cattle
raising and oil mining in the rainforest than by collecting.  for
example, swordfish populations have plummeted in the oceans because we
have been overconsuming it.  

many fish you see in pet shops are wild collected, at least most tetras
and catfish are.  if we did not collect them from the wild, we would have
a very limited number of fish we could keep, mostly livebearers and
cichlids.  what bothers me more than wild-collecting is the blatant and
heartless disregard people may have for living things and pets.  in the
aquatic plant mailing list, there was discussion recently about selling
excess fish and plants to pet shops and one person wrote that because the
shop offered him too little for his fish, he'd "rather flush the fish in
the toilet."  

just my 2 cents.

tsuh yang chen, new york city

On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:39:59 EST IVIassacre-at-aol.com writes:
>Just curious.....is there any real purpose to keeping wild specimens?  
>I can see if keeping a wild specimen would in some way improve our
knowledge 
>of the fish, but is this the case?  What kind of effect(if any) do
aquarists 
>have on the wild populations of aquarium fish?  IMO, if the fish is
readily 
>available in captive bred form then there should be no reason to subject
wild 
>ones to the stress of being moved hundreds of miles away and possibly
leading 
>to the depletion of that species in the wild.  Is the captive bred gene
pool 
>for certain fish really that small?  
>>
>Sorry if I offended any wild fish keepers,  
>             Bryan Kohart


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wild-caught fish

by Randy or Deb Carey <carey/spacestar.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

IVIassacre-at-aol.com wrote:

> Just curious.....is there any real purpose to keeping wild specimens?  I can
> see if keeping a wild specimen would in some way improve our knowledge of the
> fish, but is this the case?  What kind of effect(if any) do aquarists have on
> the wild populations of aquarium fish?  IMO, if the fish is readily available
> in captive bred form then there should be no reason to subject wild ones to
> the stress of being moved hundreds of miles away and possibly leading to the
> depletion of that species in the wild.  Is the captive bred gene pool for
> certain fish really that small?

I pretty much agree with the responses I've read so far.  Collecting fishes for
our hobby has not proven detrimental.  But I have heard one good illustration
that I don't think has been mentioned.  I heard it from David Schlesser of
Margarita Tours, a company that takes on aquarists for collecting expeditions.
This is basically how he tells it:

He shows a small pond.  This is the beginning of the dry season.  The pond you
see was part of the river in the rainy season, but now its issolated from the
river.  It contains thousands if not tens of thousands of fish.  In a month this
pond will be all dried up and all of the fish will be dead.  Any fish we collect
from this pond will have a chance to live longer than those we don't collect.

Every year, millions and millions of fish are issolated from the river by nature
and die like this.  This is nature.  The species have survived this phenomenon
for millions of years.  The amount of fish that are harvested for aquarium use
doesn't compare.

Furthermore, the natives who collect these fish and sell them to exporters [1]
have an income they wouldn't normally have, [2] now have an interest in keeping
the habitats in tact so that there will be fish to harvest and sell.

Furthermore, because we keep aquarium fish, we are having these discussions and
we are learning about  and developing concerns over their habitats.

--Randy





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