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Bloodworms

Contents:

  1. RE: RE Bloodworms - (Was Altispinosas and Rams)
    by Tom Mroz <tmroz-at-art-inc.com> (Fri, 7 Mar 1997)
  2. RE: tubifex
    by "Mroz, Tom" <tmroz/art-inc.com> (Fri, 5 Dec 1997)
  3. tubifex
    by Mike Jacobs <mfjacobs/geocities.com> (Fri, 05 Dec 1997)
  4. Blackworms good food? (fwd)
    by "A. Inniss" <andrewi/u.washington.edu> (Fri, 5 Dec 1997)
  5. Blackworms good food?
    by ()
  6. Fwd: Containimation Apisto. Tank
    by Wright Huntley <huntley/ix.netcom.com> (Wed, 10 Dec 1997)
  7. Fwd: tubifex
    by "Ed Pon" <edpon/hotmail.com> (Fri, 05 Dec 1997)
  8. Fwd: tubifex
    by Wright Huntley <huntley/ix.netcom.com> (Fri, 05 Dec 1997)
  9. Tubifex, freeeze drying
    by "Griffiths, Richard" <rgriffit/visa.com> (Fri, 5 Dec 1997)
  10. black worms
    by Randy or Deb Carey <carey/spacestar.net> (Fri, 05 Dec 1997)
  11. Death by black worm; Any female njesseni in NJ?
    by "Maladorno, Dionigi \(DRUG;Nutley\)" <DIONIGI.MALADORNO/roche.com> (Tue, 10 Mar 1998)
  12. poor diet? - allergies!
    by "V Kutty" <kutty/earthlink.net> (Thu, 14 Jan 1999)
  13. iron, blood worms and hair algae
    by "alex pastor" <alexp/idirect.com> (Mon, 5 Jul 1999)
  14. RE: iron, blood worms and hair algae
    by Mark Fisher <Mark.Fisher/tpwd.state.tx.us> (Tue, 6 Jul 1999)
  15. hemoglobin and iron in the aquarium
    by "alex pastor" <alexp/idirect.com> (Tue, 6 Jul 1999)

RE: RE Bloodworms - (Was Altispinosas and Rams)

by Tom Mroz <tmroz-at-art-inc.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997

Toado wrote (in part):

>Then again the only frozen bloodworm I can get come from Hong Kong- Great 
>food but I'm suspicious, comments anyone?.

I don't know about what exactly you are getting from Hong Kong, but you can 
easily tell the difference between bloodworms (which are midge larvae) and 
tubifex worms.  Tubifex worms, up close, look like worms.  Bloodworms look 
more like insect larvae, they have a somewhat hard looking outer skin, 
which appears segmented, and they have small appendages at one end.  I 
have'nt looked close at them recently, so I don't know how better to 
explain these appendages.  If you get these live, you can further tell the 
difference, as tubifex move like worms (sort of in a sinuous manner), 
bloodworms move somewhat more like mosquito larvae, in a jerky, twitchy 
manner.

I have never heard of anyone having problems with fish being fed 
bloodworms, though one must still expect some risk as they are cultured in 
fresh water, and therefore, can carry any number of freshwater-based 
nasties.

Another risk with bloodworms that people must be aware of is that they can 
cause a serious allergic reaction in PEOPLE that are sensitive.  Bloodworms 
are the only thing I have ever come in contact with that I am allergic to, 
and let me tell you, I've got it bad.  Over the years (and I have not used 
it in about 5 years), I have become so sensitive to them that coming in 
contact with tank water days after feed them will cause skin irritation. 
 Worse yet, I can tell when my favorite store has fed bloodworms to their 
stock within the day.  After about 15 minutes of looking at tanks, I start 
wheezing and my chest constricts - all from what little must be floating 
around in the air!

I have seen an article from an allergy specialist that confirms this 
allergen, and further suggests that this allergen is closely related to 
that of dust mites.  So if you know you are allergic to one, be careful 
with the other.  (I apparently don't have the dust mite problem - yet).

As for tubifex and/or blackworms - I never feed mine to anything but 
corydoras cats, which do not seem to be affected by any of the potential 
nasties that the worms can carry.




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RE: tubifex

by "Mroz, Tom" <tmroz/art-inc.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

I'm almost ashamed to say so, but I currently have some wild form
cacatuoides that are (inadvertently) getting blackworms in their diet.
I'm ashamed because everyone "knows" that blackworms/tubifex worms cause
bloat in apistos, dont' they?   The inadvertent part is that I dropped
some ~3/4" cacatuoides fry into a tank where I am keeping some empire
gudgeons, just as dither and to see how they would grow out.  I feed the
empires blackworms every couple days.  The cacatuoides have almost
doubled in size in the past several weeks and are the most full bodied,
robust (but not bloated!) cacatuoides I have ever raised!  

Now, am I convinced that this is not only safe, but desireable?  Well,
let's just say I have not had the guts to throw blackworms into my
grow-out tank for cacatuoides yet.  Still too much concern over the
bloat issue.

Some additional random observations:

- I had a stray Nannacara anomala in a catfish "only" tank that got
blackworms all the time.  I just took the fish out the other day, and it
is the plumpest, healthiest looking 2 1/2"+ anomala I have ever seen.
And I am one of those guys that has never been able to spawn anomala,
and in fact typically end up with weak, sick fish.

- I was growing out Corydoras barbatus and some pandurini recently.  I
fed blackworms occasionally for the Corys with no sickness issues with
the pandurini.  Feedings were small enough that the pandurinis were not
getting enough to expect significant growth, but they all swam around
with one jammed down their throat every feeding!

- I started feeding blackworms to my discus pair when the female stopped
eating anything else (she stopped eating first, then the worms - not the
other way around).  This once shy pair of fish now greet me true
cichlid-style whenever I come near the tank, just hoping and praying
I'll shove some worms down their throats.  THey only get blackworms a
couple times a week at best, but their behavior appears to be
consistently improved.  Not a dwarf, but a cichlid at least.

For blackworms, I tend to buy 1/2 lb. at a time, clean them with
multiple water changes every 2 or 3 days, and keep them in the
refrigerator.  They always look in good condition, which is contrary to
the quality of worms I have occasionally seen for sale.  Because I get
1/2 lb., I have them around for a few weeks, which I would guess further
cleans them out as they get nothing to eat (but they all do live, which
to me is both amazing and fortunate).

Further regarding sickness and worm quality, I have never, ever seen a
corydoras sickness/death linked to good quality, clean worms.  But, I
have (rarely) fed poor quality as-received worms to corys, and had
significant problems with disease and mortality.  Perhaps it is not
worms themselves, but how they are kept, regardless of the species they
are fed to?


Tom (still probably not going to feed blackworms to my cacatuoides, not
quite yet)
> ----------
> From: 	Ed Pon[SMTP:edpon-at-hotmail.com]
> Reply To: 	apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com
> Sent: 	Friday, December 05, 1997 10:16 AM
> To: 	apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com
> Subject: 	Fwd: tubifex
> 
> >
> >I recently heard that tubifex can cause bloat in cichlids.  Anyone
> have 
> any
> >experience with them.  
> 

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tubifex

by Mike Jacobs <mfjacobs/geocities.com>
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

Folks.......I don't have anything scientific to say but I have been
working with the "black" tubifex worm( I don't think they're tubifex)
since about 1968 or so when I was a young brat working at a pet store
and going to Purdue University.  The pet store dealt with both the red
and black tubifex worms as food for fish.  The red worms were impossible
to work with......no matter what we did, the worms were dirty and NEVER
cleaned up like the black worms did.  It wasn't but about 2-3 months and
we stopped dealing with the red worms.  The black worms were put in a
2-3 gallon pail and put under a faucet and water was slowly run over the
entire clump of worms for 1-2 hours a day for several days.....sometime
less and kept in the 'fridge.  After 2-3 days usually, unless someone
left them out they stayed clean virtually forever as long as someone
would wash them at least every day....that's where I learned to keep
them.  Back then, 1968 I could spawn about anything I wanted
to....people thought I had a line to the fish GOD.......I was using
black worms....fish will spawn after eating black worms, given the right
water conditions.....fish were created to spawn....they want to do
that.  Over the years.....30....... I have just stayed quiet and spawned
virtually any fish I wanted, within reason, because, I think, I have
ALWAYS used black worms.  I must admit however the years I was doing and
spawning and raising discus I chickened out and ONLY did beefheart and
other discus food.  But I firmly believe that if the worms are cleaned
properly and cared for there will be no problems.......I cannot
attribute any fish problems that were for a fact caused by the black
worms, and that has been for 30 some years!!!!!

These days I buy them by the fistful.......it costs about $15-18 for a
fistworth.  I put them in an appropriate tupperware dish....straight
sides and about 6-7" diameter and maybe 6" high......and I will wash the
worms 2-3 times a day for the first 5-6 days and I will NOT feed out of
this batch until the water in the worm bowl is as clean in the morning
as it was the previous night.  I keep the worms in the refrigerator
always.......let the ball of worms settle down in the tupperware after
rinsing them vigerously, as soon as they spread out in the bowl put just
enough water in the bowl so that you can see the worms wiggling at the
surface of the water.....don't just submerge the whole bunch.....I don't
know why that works it just does.  Now depending on how many I feed, it
may be 2-3 weeks before I've used the whole batch up.  I have live
daphnia, hatched baby brine etc.  I'm ashamed to say my dwarfs won't eat
a flake....they don't know what it is.

..........but guys don't tell anyone that I do this.....they all tell me
I will kill my fish.........for 30 years they've told me
that......someone was over the other day and said "...I don't know how
you get your apistos so big........mine, he says just won't grow on
flake food......heh, heh, heh.........He thinks daphnia is stupid
too!!!!

You folks have a good weekend.....won't be back till Monday......no
internet at home.......will be looking forward to all of you telling me
I can't use black worms it causes BLOAT.

.......TGIF

Mike

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Blackworms good food? (fwd)

by "A. Inniss" <andrewi/u.washington.edu>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com


	Thought I'd forward this, since it seems relevant.


~^~
 ~
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 00:24:36 -0500
From: Nestor10 <nestor10-at-mindspring.chkr.com>

Blackworms good food?

by
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria.freshwater.cichlids

>GOSH!  Now you've got me worried...

Don't be. According to Carolina Biological Supply, the blackworm

"...is a common freshwater annelid, Lumbriculus variegatus. Also known as a
California blackworm, or mudworm, _Lumbriculus variegatus_ is a member of
the Order _Lumbriculida_, a small subgroup of oligochaetes that includes
neither earthworms nor freshwater tubifex worms..."

-Y-

nestor10-at-mindspring.chkr.com
"chkr." is for mail-bots





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Fwd: Containimation Apisto. Tank

by Wright Huntley <huntley/ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

George wrote:
> 
> Hi Ed
> 
> Was feeding them Live Brine Shrimp, frozen Bloodworm and alot of
> different type`s of  flake food. Mostly Tetra brands.
> 
> George
> 
> > George--Just out of curiosity, and seeing the recent discussion on
> > tubifex/black worms--what were you feeding these guys?
> >

I was warned about frozen bloodworms by folks that had very negative
experiences with them. IDK what brands you were using, but I will only
use SF Bay Brand (Sally's) or Hikari. Quality-control on many others is
poor to none, with dead larvae left sitting in the sun to rot before
freezing.

The resultant bacteria and toxins they produce can quickly kill all the
fish in a tank.

Just a thought,

Wright

-- 
Wright Huntley, Fremont CA, USA, 510 494-8679 huntley-at-ix.netcom.com
"Quantum electrodynamics (QED): the dreams stuff is made of."

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Fwd: tubifex

by "Ed Pon" <edpon/hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

>
>I recently heard that tubifex can cause bloat in cichlids.  Anyone have 
any
>experience with them.  I used them years ago, and don't recall any
>complications.
>Bob Dixon
Tubifex are the "kiss of death" for Lake Tanganyikan and Lake Malawan 
cichlids whose diet consists mostly of vegetable matter (Tropheous and 
Pseudotropheous; probably misspelt).  The Lake Tanganyikan vegetarians 
have longer intestinal tracts than the more carnivorous fish (from 
Brichards first book).  I don't know whether this is what makes these 
fish prone to "bloat".  At a lecture given by Dr. Beverly Dixon many 
years ago, I believe her opinion at the time was that "bloat" was some 
kind of blood-poisoning (vague memory).

Many keepers of apistos don't feed tubifex to their fish because of a 
belief that "mysterious deaths" are related to the heavy bacteria load 
that tubifex carry.  I believe that when I stopped feeding tubifex to my 
fish, "mysterious deaths" and external paratsites were seen less often.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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Fwd: tubifex

by Wright Huntley <huntley/ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

Ed Pon wrote:

snip...

> Tubifex are the "kiss of death" for Lake Tanganyikan and Lake Malawan
> cichlids whose diet consists mostly of vegetable matter (Tropheous and
> Pseudotropheous; probably misspelt).  The Lake Tanganyikan vegetarians
> have longer intestinal tracts than the more carnivorous fish (from
> Brichards first book).  I don't know whether this is what makes these
> fish prone to "bloat".  At a lecture given by Dr. Beverly Dixon many
> years ago, I believe her opinion at the time was that "bloat" was some
> kind of blood-poisoning (vague memory).
>
> Many keepers of apistos don't feed tubifex to their fish because of a
> belief that "mysterious deaths" are related to the heavy bacteria load
> that tubifex carry.  I believe that when I stopped feeding tubifex to my
> fish, "mysterious deaths" and external paratsites were seen less often.
>

 The explanation for Tanganyican fish is often much simpler than gut length.
Tubifex and black worms are extremely rich food and cause copious evolution of
ammonia. At pH in the high 8s or low 9s, the ammonia/ammonium ratio is way in
favor of ammonia. It took me only a couple of days late on a water change to lose
a nice tank of *Lamprichthys tanganicus*. No mystery at all, there. Just
stupidity.

For Apistos, the (mostly) ammonium is little problem, but rich food always
requires a *lot* more water changing than simple maintenance diets, anyway, IMO,
to keep the rest of the water chemistry simple.

I've never (knowingly) had any external parasites from other than wild-caught
fish, so IDK about that as a problem. I have fed a lot of black worms at times.

Dr Barry Cooper, Vet. Pathologist at Cornell, contends that tubifex and black
worms carry no known fish pathogens. Their *water* might carry them, but that's
why we rinse them well and keep them in changing water. Otherwise, my experience
generally tends to agree with Barry's statements on this subject.

Wright

--
Wright Huntley, Fremont CA, USA, 510 494-8679 huntley-at-ix.netcom.com
"Subvert the dominant paradigm!"


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Tubifex, freeeze drying

by "Griffiths, Richard" <rgriffit/visa.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997
To: "'apisto/majordomo.pobox.com'" <apisto/majordomo.pobox.com>

There is some speculation, and supposedly studies done, to indicate that
infected worms are not made safe by freeze drying--at least to the human
element of parasites/'nasties' which impact humans. The actual 'tubivex'
worms that aquarists were so fond of, and confuse with other worms
today, do quite well near waste processing effluents & duck farms. Human
related parasites/'bugs' are easily transmited through that particular
host. Freeze drying apparently is not 100% effective.

>----------
>From: 	crom-at-cris.com[SMTP:crom-at-cris.com]
>Sent: 	Friday, December 05, 1997 11:58 AM
>To: 	apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com
>Subject: 	Re: Fwd: tubifex
>
>Does the process used in freeze-drying tubifex make them safe?
>
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>For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
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>

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black worms

by Randy or Deb Carey <carey/spacestar.net>
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

Mike Jacobs wrote:
> 
<snip>
>   Back then, 1968 I could spawn about anything I wanted
> to....people thought I had a line to the fish GOD.......I was using
> black worms....fish will spawn after eating black worms, given the right
> water conditions.....fish were created to spawn....they want to do
> that.  Over the years.....30....... I have just stayed quiet and spawned
> virtually any fish I wanted, within reason, because, I think, I have
> ALWAYS used black worms.  <snip> 

I've been sold on black worms for some times.  Black worms and a massive
r/o water change are the best inducers for Apisto's.  I never saw a
Rasbora spawn until three weeks ago...right after a black worm feeding
(and a pH drop to 5.0).  Thanks for the testimony.  I think your right
about them helping to induce the harder-to-spawn fishes.

> These days I buy them by the fistful.......it costs about $15-18 for a
> fistworth.

A guy in our club (he lurks in this list) ships in 10 pounds of black
worms per month and sells to fellow club members.  I'm in each month for
a pound at around $12.  There's nothing like networking in a club with
other serious hobbyists!


--Randy

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Death by black worm; Any female njesseni in NJ?

by "Maladorno, Dionigi \(DRUG;Nutley\)" <DIONIGI.MALADORNO/roche.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998
To: "'apisto/majordomo.pobox.com'" <apisto/majordomo.pobox.com>

 "Matthew Diller" wrote: <<<<
Subject: Re:  Death by black worm
This morning I was feeding some delectable black worms to my large
healthy =
male a. cauc.  when he suddenly freaked out and went rigid.  He
recovered =
a bit, but sat on the bottom looking ill.  I am at work now, but my wife
=
reports from home  that it does not look good.  Can a black worm (I
guess =
a relative of tubifex) really kill a fish?>>>>>


At the last meeting of the NJ Aquarium Society, the speaker
was the well known hobbyist Rosario LaCorte, who presented
tons of slides on very beautiful killies.
At the beginning of the speech however, he went over tips
and tricks on live foods, and stated that in his opinion lots of
the mysterious deaths seen with blackworms are simply due
to the fact that a whole worm may suffocate the fish, especially
with juvenile fishes, and particularly because they are so fond of 
this food, that they gulp down huge quantities if available.
He stated that, besides proper purging,  they should always be 
chopped before they are administered.  




Is there around anyone close to the north NJ area, available to
sell or trade to me one or two female njesseni? I would
come and pick them up. Contact me privately, if interested.




Dionigi Maladorno
dionigi.maladorno-at-roche.com
This message presents personal opinions which are not necessarily 
those of my employer.





 


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poor diet? - allergies!

by "V Kutty" <kutty/earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999
To: <apisto/majordomo.pobox.com>

Mike Wise wrote:
>name), frozen adult brine shrimp, frozen blood worms (rarely since my
allergies
>to it put me out of commission for a whole day after feeding it), and live
baby
>brine shrimp.

Hey me too!  The last time I handled frozen blood worms, I touched my eye
without thinking and my eye swelled shut in about 5 minutes!  I looked like
a horror movie...more so than usual.  That was 4 years ago.  I've started
feeding it again recently because the fish love it so, but wear gloves and
wash the heck out of my gloves and hands after feeding.

I feed my Apistos baby brine shrimp, grindal worms, Tetrabits (called Discus
bits now?), frozen adult brine, frozen blood worms and live daphnia as a
treat.  Daphnia takes the most effort to raise but I think they are worth
it.

Vinny




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iron, blood worms and hair algae

by "alex pastor" <alexp/idirect.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999

A while back I inquired as to whether iron from the haemoglobin of blood
worms could possibly be sufficiently significant as to promote the growth of
hair algae.  There were no responses to this posting.

Yesterday I took out the Sera test kit.  I added 5 drops of the reddish
coloured liquid dripping from thawing blood worms into the test vial.  To
this I added sufficient tap water to make up 5 ml. (my tap water contains no
detectible iron).  The water took on a very slight reddish (not pinkish)
tinge.  Then I added 3 drops of reagent and allowed this to sit for 24
hours.

Tonight when I took at look at the vial, the contents were very pink.  The
reading indicates a level of 0.5mg/l iron.  This was not meant to be a
quantitative experiment, merely a test to determine whether a significant
amount of iron would be released from blood worms as they thaw.  Since
haemoglobin is a protein molecule, the iron contained would be released
through bacterial activity into the water column.  In tanks where I no
longer add iron through direct fertilization and where there are slow
growing plants, hair algae (the coarse kind) grows in profusion.  This may
be the explanation.

G. Kadar

I feed my fish a diet of mostly frozen foods because they won't eat flakes.
Generally, it's brine shrimp for breakfast and blood worms for dinner.  At
one point I used to thaw the blood worms and rinse them before feeding to
the fish, but the fish did not 'smell' them.  So, I usually just wave a
chunk of frozen bloodworms around and let them thaw out in the tank.  It
would appear that there is considerable haemoglobin, and thus iron, being
released through the thawing process and that this may be a contributory
factor to the development of hair algae in aquariums where fish are fed
large quantities of frozen blood worms.


RE: iron, blood worms and hair algae

by Mark Fisher <Mark.Fisher/tpwd.state.tx.us>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999

> Tonight when I took at look at the vial, the contents were 
> very pink.  The
> reading indicates a level of 0.5mg/l iron.  This was not meant to be a
> quantitative experiment, merely a test to determine whether a 
> significant
> amount of iron would be released from blood worms as they thaw.  Since
> haemoglobin is a protein molecule, the iron contained would 
> be released
> through bacterial activity into the water column.  In tanks where I no
> longer add iron through direct fertilization and where there are slow
> growing plants, hair algae (the coarse kind) grows in 
> profusion.  This may
> be the explanation.

The hemoglobin of bloodworms contains one heme (and thus one Fe atom)
per molecule, and the molecular weight of their hemoglobin is
approximately 16,000.  Iron has a molecular weight of 55.4, so bloodworm
hemoglobin is about 0.35% iron.

In order to achieve 0.1 mg/l Fe in 100 gallons of water solely by the
addition of bloodworms, one would need to add 38 mg of iron, or 38/.0035
= 10,857 mg of hemoglobin.

Lets assume the blood of a bloodworm is about 5% of their total body
weight, and that blood is about 10% hemoglobin.  To get 10,857 mg of
hemoglobin, one would need 108,570 mg of blood, or 2,171,400 mg of
bloodworms.  This is 2.17 kilograms, or 4.8 pounds, of bloodworms.

I don't believe that the normal feeding of bloodworms is a significant
source of iron for aquarium plants.

Regards,

Mark


hemoglobin and iron in the aquarium

by "alex pastor" <alexp/idirect.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999

Sorry but I disagree with the conclusions of your calculations.  The amount
of iron added on a daily or weekly basis to a moderately planted aquarium
could not possibly amount to a great deal more than what is added on a daily
basis with thawed blood worms, especially when one meal of every day
consists of bloodworms only.

I have stopped adding iron, but not potassium, to most of my tanks precisely
because I can see that the amount of iron getting into the water column from
the feeding of frozen blood worms is more than sufficient for healthy plant
growth (for plants that are water column feeders).  Even so, in order to
prevent hair algae overgrowth I have to do twice weekly water changes.

Tanks where the fish live on flakes and brine shrimp do not develop hair
algae even with the addition of some iron-based fertilizers.

Instead of making all sorts of calculations based on chemical weights, why
not try it out and see for yourself?  As I noted in my posting, this was not
a quantitative experiment in the strictest sense of the word.  However,
there are people who are confounded by the fact that they have hair algae
growth in their tanks and don't know what they could do to alter the
situation.  I am suggesting that they refrain from feeding the fish frozen
bloodworms for a period of a month or more and assess.  If the hair algae
growth subsides, or disappears entirely, then whatever is in the bloodworm
'juice' +AF8-may+AF8- in all likelihood be responsible.

G. Kadar


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