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Fertilizer

Contents:

  1. Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics
    by gks7938-at-trex.oscs.montana.edu (Keith Seyffarth) (31 Jan 1994)
  2. Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics
    by narten-at-abacus.albany.edu (Thomas Narten) (31 Jan 1994)
  3. Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics
    by krogers-at-canopus.sim.es.com (Keith Rogers) (31 Jan 1994)
  4. Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics
    by sasala-at-itd.itd.nrl.navy.mil (Thomas M. Sasala) (Mon, 31 Jan 1994)
  5. Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics
    by gks7938-at-trex.oscs.montana.edu (Keith Seyffarth) (31 Jan 1994)
  6. Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics
    by bhaskar-at-brtph181.bnr.ca (Shaji Bhaskar) (Mon, 31 Jan 1994)
  7. Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics
    by booga-at-jooby.Eng.Sun.Com (Steve Jankowski) (1 Feb 1994)
  8. Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics
    by krogers-at-canopus.sim.es.com (Keith Rogers) (1 Feb 1994)
  9. Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics
    by vaanderi-at-benji.Colorado.EDU (VAANDERING ERIC W) (Tue, 1 Feb 1994)
  10. Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics
    by cosc19vs-at-menudo.uh.edu (i forgot who i am!) (1 Feb 1994)
  11. Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics
    by toms-at-ihs.com (Tom Stockman) (Wed, 2 Feb 1994)
  12. Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics
    by jj-at-alice.att.com (jj, curmudgeon and all-around grouch) (2 Feb 94)
  13. Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics
    by grn-at-alcove.apana.org.au (Geoffrey Newman) (Wed, 2 Feb 94)
  14. Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics
    by schuang-at-sdcc6.ucsd.edu (Kevin) (3 Feb 94)
  15. Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics
    by gks7938-at-trex.oscs.montana.edu (Keith Seyffarth) (4 Feb 1994)
  16. Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics
    by sasala-at-itd.itd.nrl.navy.mil (Thomas M. Sasala) (Mon, 31 Jan 1994)
  17. Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics
    by krogers-at-canopus.sim.es.com (Keith Rogers) (1 Feb 1994)
  18. Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics
    by amcdermo-at-gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (Ashley McDermott) (Sat, 5 Feb 1994)
  19. floss + UGF = minimum maintenance aquarium
    by booth-at-hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM (George Booth) (Wed, 5 Jan 1994)
  20. floss + UGF = minimum maintenance aquarium
    by Neil.Frank-at-launchpad.unc.edu (Neil Frank) (8 Jan 1994)
  21. Plant food??
    by ac554-at-FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Whittaker) (Tue, 27 Sep 1994)
  22. Plant food??
    by booth-at-lvld.hp.com (George Booth) (27 Sep 1994)
  23. [F] What temp for Hygrophila polysperma?
    by booth-at-lvld.hp.com (George Booth) (27 Sep 1994)
  24. FW plant micronutrient formula
    by sywang-at-whale.st.usm.edu (Shiao Y. Wang) (4 Dec 1994)
  25. [Q][F]Plants: 3 Questions
    by booth-at-lvld.hp.com (George Booth) (30 Nov 1994)
  26. [PLANT] Aquatic Plant Cultivation Methods
    by deadfish-at-netcom.com (Bruce Hallman) (Wed, 15 Mar 1995)
  27. [PLANT] Aquatic Plant Cultivation Methods
    by ac554-at-FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Whittaker) (Thu, 16 Mar 1995)
  28. Laterite and Micronized
    by David Randall <76535.2776-at-compuserve.com> (12 Apr 95)
  29. Chelated iron and rusty nails
    by nfrank-at-parsifal.nando.net (Neil Frank) (Fri, 16 Jun 95)
  30. micronutrient mix
    by krombhol-at-felix.TECLink.Net (Paul Krombholz) (Sun, 15 Oct 1995)
  31. Nutrient stability
    by ac554-at-freenet.carleton.ca (David Whittaker) (Tue, 26 Sep 1995)
  32. Substrate Gold
    by bickford-at-ipa.net (Jay Bickford) (Mon, 1 Jan 1996)
  33. PMDD recipe
    by Kevin Conlin <kcconlin-at-cae.ca> (Wed, 13 Mar 1996)
  34. Magnesium
    by krandall-at-world.std.com (Karen A Randall) (Wed, 20 Nov 1996)
  35. tetrasodium ...
    by eworobe-at-cc.UManitoba.CA (Sun, 16 Mar 1997)
  36. Osmocote
    by "Jim Burrows" <jburrows/ix.netcom.com> (Sat, 29 Mar 1997)
  37. Easy RMDD Source
    by krandall/world.std.com (Mon, 27 Jan 1997)
  38. GAC and plants?
    by jamesl1033/aol.com (JamesL1033) (23 Apr 1997)
  39. water conditioners
    by George Booth <booth/hpmtlgb1.lvld.hp.com> (Tue, 25 Nov 1997)
  40. Jobes Plant Sticks
    by Tim Mullins <tmullins/telerama.com> (Mon, 12 Jan 1998)
  41. Oxidation of trace elements
    by Paul Sears <psears/nrn1.NRCan.gc.ca> (Mon, 24 Nov 1997)
  42. Seachem - Flourish and their water conditioner? Any good?
    by Steve Pushak <teban/nospam.powersonic.bc.ca> (Mon, 09 Mar 1998)
  43. PMDD Alternative/ Liquidoser
    by larry/creative.net (Larry Frank) (Thu, 23 Apr 1998)
  44. plant cuttings die without chelated iron?? ;-)
    by rjw/aluxs.micro.lucent.com (Ronald Wozniak) (Wed, 22 Apr 98)
  45. Osmocote experiments
    by Neil Frank <nfrank/mindspring.com> (Thu, 03 Apr 1997)
  46. Sochting Dosator
    by "A M Moore" <andy/ascot.u-net.com> (Thu, 24 Sep 1998)
  47. EDTA and Mineral nutrition
    by eworobe/cc.UManitoba.CA (Tue, 24 Nov 1998)
  48. EDTA
    by ac554/freenet.carleton.ca (David Whittaker) (Mon, 8 Feb 1999)
  49. Any Tropica Master Grow experiences??
    by krandall/world.std.com (Sat, 16 Jan 1999)
  50. RE: Tropica Master Grow - OOOPS!
    by "James Purchase" <jpurch/interlog.com> (Sun, 17 Jan 1999)
  51. NTA update
    by "romano" <romano/pathway1.pathcom.com> (Fri, 15 Jan 1999)
  52. NTA update
    by "romano" <romano/pathway1.pathcom.com> (Fri, 15 Jan 1999)
  53. Micronutrients
    by "Dixon, Steven T. (BEn)" <stdixon/ben.bechtel.com> (Wed, 5 Apr 2000)

Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics

by gks7938-at-trex.oscs.montana.edu (Keith Seyffarth)
Date: 31 Jan 1994

In article <NARTEN.94Jan30201954-at-abacus.albany.edu>,
narten-at-abacus.albany.edu (Thomas Narten) wrote:
> 
> 1) Iron is probably the most easily depleted element that tends to be
> in short supply.  I've confirmed that in my tanks by having
> deterioration (yellow leaves that die) reversed after adding iron
> supplements.  I've had very good experience using Coralife "Iron
> Supplement". I follow the instruction dumping 2.5 teaspoons in per
> week. An 8oz bottle runs $12 locally.

I use FerroPlant (Ferro-Vit) in my tanks and it sounds cheaper, about
$10.00 per bottle locally (about one half liter)

> 2) Many of the stores I've been in sell Tetra "Flora Pride"
> iron-intensive Fertilizer.  The lable of course don't say what is in
> it. It contains "Soluble Potash (K2O)" and iron, plus a "well-balanced
> combination of mineral nutrients and trace elements".

Unlike some of the other people who have posted to this article, I had no
bad effects when I used this, but we did not notice any changes in any
plants or fish for the better.  


> 3) I know some folks use "Wimex trace" (or something like that). Is
> this sufficient or is it missing stuff?  I've heard of some folks
> mixing "ferroplant" with this to get a better mixture. 

I also use Marine Enterprises Trace Elememt Restorer.  I use two drops per
gallon of this stuff, and about 1/2 tsp per 20 gallons FerroPlant weekly.  

Keith S.
gks7938-at-trex.oscs.montana.edu

Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics

by narten-at-abacus.albany.edu (Thomas Narten)
Date: 31 Jan 1994

What kind of trace element plant fertilizers are out there and what
are people using?  I'd like to see a discussion started on this topic.
Would those of you with experience please report on your experiences?

Here is (what little!) I know:

0) I'm assuming that pretty much everyone stays away from fertilizers
that contain phosphates/nitrates.  Some fertilzers contain them, so
read all labels before buying. I'm also assuming people are using CO2
so that trace element depletion becomes a concern.

1) Iron is probably the most easily depleted element that tends to be
in short supply.  I've confirmed that in my tanks by having
deterioration (yellow leaves that die) reversed after adding iron
supplements.  I've had very good experience using Coralife "Iron
Supplement". I follow the instruction dumping 2.5 teaspoons in per
week. An 8oz bottle runs $12 locally.

Are cheaper alternatives available?  What about "Dexol" vitamin B-1?
I've heard that is an acceptable form.

2) Many of the stores I've been in sell Tetra "Flora Pride"
iron-intensive Fertilizer.  The lable of course don't say what is in
it. It contains "Soluble Potash (K2O)" and iron, plus a "well-balanced
combination of mineral nutrients and trace elements".

Anyone know what is really in it, and more important, what is missing?

3) I know some folks use "Wimex trace" (or something like that). Is
this sufficient or is it missing stuff?  I've heard of some folks
mixing "ferroplant" with this to get a better mixture. 

What mixtures are people using and how did they figure out what
ratios to  use.

4) I've also seen a product from Pond Care called "Aquatic Plant
Stimulant". It's relatively cheap and comes in big bottles (presumably
for big ponds).  It contains no nitrates or phosphates. Anyone know
what's in it?  Is there any reason to think that pond plant
requirements are substantially different than those in aquariums?

5) For all fertilizers, a 1/7 dose every day is better than a full
dose once a week.

6) Dupla has three different additives, daily drops (containing
elements that are unstable or toxic in higher concentratoins) and
weekly DuplaPlant tablets plus Duplagen.  These seem to do the job
quite well.  I guess I'm  looking for possible alternatives.
--
Thomas Narten
narten-at-cs.albany.edu



Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics

by krogers-at-canopus.sim.es.com (Keith Rogers)
Date: 31 Jan 1994

narten-at-abacus.albany.edu (Thomas Narten) writes:

>What kind of trace element plant fertilizers are out there and what
>are people using?  I'd like to see a discussion started on this topic.
>Would those of you with experience please report on your experiences?

>2) Many of the stores I've been in sell Tetra "Flora Pride"
>iron-intensive Fertilizer.  The lable of course don't say what is in
>it. It contains "Soluble Potash (K2O)" and iron, plus a "well-balanced
>combination of mineral nutrients and trace elements".
>
>Anyone know what is really in it, and more important, what is missing?

DON'T GET THIS STUFF.  Last I saw, tests showed enormous amounts of
nitrates and phosphates.  It was just a plain ol' terrestrial plant
fertilizer on par with Miracle Gro.

>6) Dupla has three different additives, daily drops (containing
>elements that are unstable or toxic in higher concentratoins) and
>weekly DuplaPlant tablets plus Duplagen.  These seem to do the job
>quite well.  I guess I'm  looking for possible alternatives.

I use DuplaPlant (the tablets) and DuplaPlant24 (the drops) at 1/4
recommendation in a non-CO2 injected tank with very good results.
Other people get good results with other things, and I'll let them say
with what.  Given my tank is only 20 gallons and the rate of usage, a
bottle of the drops lasts about 3.5 years so the higher cost of Dupla
products is rendered irrelevant.  Ditto for the tablets.
-- 
Keith Rogers
krogers-at-sim.es.com



Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics

by sasala-at-itd.itd.nrl.navy.mil (Thomas M. Sasala)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994

In article <2ijf1v$im6-at-canopus.sim.es.com> krogers-at-sim.es.com writes:
>narten-at-abacus.albany.edu (Thomas Narten) writes:
>
>>What kind of trace element plant fertilizers are out there and what
>>are people using?  I'd like to see a discussion started on this topic.
>>Would those of you with experience please report on your experiences?
>
>>2) Many of the stores I've been in sell Tetra "Flora Pride"
>>iron-intensive Fertilizer.  The lable of course don't say what is in
>>it. It contains "Soluble Potash (K2O)" and iron, plus a "well-balanced
>>combination of mineral nutrients and trace elements".
>>
>>Anyone know what is really in it, and more important, what is missing?
>
>DON'T GET THIS STUFF.  Last I saw, tests showed enormous amounts of
>nitrates and phosphates.  It was just a plain ol' terrestrial plant
>fertilizer on par with Miracle Gro.
>
	I agree with this.  I started using this stuff and had a serious
breakout of brown algea all over my tank, assumedly from the phosphates.

				-T



Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics

by gks7938-at-trex.oscs.montana.edu (Keith Seyffarth)
Date: 31 Jan 1994

In article <NARTEN.94Jan30201954-at-abacus.albany.edu>,
narten-at-abacus.albany.edu (Thomas Narten) wrote:
> 
> 1) Iron is probably the most easily depleted element that tends to be
> in short supply.  I've confirmed that in my tanks by having
> deterioration (yellow leaves that die) reversed after adding iron
> supplements.  I've had very good experience using Coralife "Iron
> Supplement". I follow the instruction dumping 2.5 teaspoons in per
> week. An 8oz bottle runs $12 locally.

I use FerroPlant (Ferro-Vit) in my tanks and it sounds cheaper, about
$10.00 per bottle locally (about one half liter)

> 2) Many of the stores I've been in sell Tetra "Flora Pride"
> iron-intensive Fertilizer.  The lable of course don't say what is in
> it. It contains "Soluble Potash (K2O)" and iron, plus a "well-balanced
> combination of mineral nutrients and trace elements".

Unlike some of the other people who have posted to this article, I had no
bad effects when I used this, but we did not notice any changes in any
plants or fish for the better.  


> 3) I know some folks use "Wimex trace" (or something like that). Is
> this sufficient or is it missing stuff?  I've heard of some folks
> mixing "ferroplant" with this to get a better mixture. 

I also use Marine Enterprises Trace Elememt Restorer.  I use two drops per
gallon of this stuff, and about 1/2 tsp per 20 gallons FerroPlant weekly.  

Keith S.
gks7938-at-trex.oscs.montana.edu



Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics

by bhaskar-at-brtph181.bnr.ca (Shaji Bhaskar)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994

In article <2ijf1v$im6-at-canopus.sim.es.com> krogers-at-sim.es.com writes:
>narten-at-abacus.albany.edu (Thomas Narten) writes:
>>2) Many of the stores I've been in sell Tetra "Flora Pride"
>>iron-intensive Fertilizer.  The lable of course don't say what is in
>>it. It contains "Soluble Potash (K2O)" and iron, plus a "well-balanced
>>combination of mineral nutrients and trace elements".
>>Anyone know what is really in it, and more important, what is missing?
>
>DON'T GET THIS STUFF.  Last I saw, tests showed enormous amounts of
>nitrates and phosphates.  It was just a plain ol' terrestrial plant
>fertilizer on par with Miracle Gro.

I just checked the label, it claims to have no nitrates or phosphates
(N-P-K analysis 0-0-3).  My nitrate test kit shows zero nitrates when
this fertilizer is used at twice the recommended dose.

The iron is unchelated (ferric sulfate) so it will precipitate faster
than chelated iron.

-Shaji
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shaji Bhaskar                                             bhaskar-at-bnr.ca
BNR, Research Triangle Park, NC 27709, USA                (919) 991 7125


Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics

by booga-at-jooby.Eng.Sun.Com (Steve Jankowski)
Date: 1 Feb 1994

Looks like you pretty much covered everything.  I use Duplant24 (the
daily drops) with good results.  Occasionally, we'll dump in some
FerroVit (FerroPlant) or Tetra Helena Crypto.  Now, stop gasping, yes
Helena Crypto is packed with nitrates and phosphates.  We only use
this if we want a growth spike.  In combo with an iron dosage,
growth can be stunning.

We don't do this very often.  Really.

Def; plant fanatic - One for whom fish are a decoration for their
	20 species botanical garden.

alternate definition - Fish?  Oh, they're just to keep the bio-filter
	alive.  Did you know that these two plants are actually the
	same species?  You see they grow differently... wait let me
	get a book.  <guest starts wondering when dinner will be served>

booga



Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics

by krogers-at-canopus.sim.es.com (Keith Rogers)
Date: 1 Feb 1994

bhaskar-at-brtph181.bnr.ca (Shaji Bhaskar) writes:

>In article <2ijf1v$im6-at-canopus.sim.es.com> krogers-at-sim.es.com writes:
>>narten-at-abacus.albany.edu (Thomas Narten) writes:
>>>2) Many of the stores I've been in sell Tetra "Flora Pride"
>>
>>DON'T GET THIS STUFF.  Last I saw, tests showed enormous amounts of
>>nitrates and phosphates.  It was just a plain ol' terrestrial plant
>>fertilizer on par with Miracle Gro.
>
>I just checked the label, it claims to have no nitrates or phosphates
>(N-P-K analysis 0-0-3).  My nitrate test kit shows zero nitrates when
>this fertilizer is used at twice the recommended dose.

Ok, I'm glad someone actually verified this.  The last container of it
I saw had no assay printed but an el-cheapo NO3 test showed massive
amounts of it.  The stuff was about 8 years old, though.  Perhaps we
were mistaken in the test results or perhaps they've changed their
formulation (or both).  

And for the definitive answer regarding the usefulness of Flora Pride
I've now seen postings which state: bad things happened, good things
happened, no change occured.

You gotta love it.
-- 
Keith Rogers
krogers-at-sim.es.com



Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics

by vaanderi-at-benji.Colorado.EDU (VAANDERING ERIC W)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994

In article <2ijf1v$im6-at-canopus.sim.es.com>,
Keith Rogers <krogers-at-sim.es.com> wrote:
>I use DuplaPlant (the tablets) and DuplaPlant24 (the drops) at 1/4
>recommendation in a non-CO2 injected tank with very good results.
>Other people get good results with other things, and I'll let them say
>with what.  Given my tank is only 20 gallons and the rate of usage, a
>bottle of the drops lasts about 3.5 years so the higher cost of Dupla
>products is rendered irrelevant.  Ditto for the tablets.

What is the rate for the drops?  Also, as I understand it the tablets are 
only used during water changes.  I was hoping that the Dupla products I 
have (Duplarit with a pack of tablets) would contain this info along with 
a few words on what is actually in each of the products,

Eric


-- 
 Eric Vaandering       Physics Department      University of Colorado          
                       Boulder CO 80302        vaanderi-at-rintintin.colorado.edu 
 ______________________________________________________________________________
 Don't ask me, I only work here.                                               



Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics

by cosc19vs-at-menudo.uh.edu (i forgot who i am!)
Date: 1 Feb 1994

well, i personally use pond care's plant stimulous....it seems to provide
enough trace elements needed.  it is almost as cheap as water--a bottle
costs around $7-10.00 and it treats 5,000 gallons..

as for the phosphate/nitrogen concern--that is supplied by my fish...i mean,
it is a pond fertilizer/stimulant right?  so i guess you are under assumption
that you will have fish.

-- 
-----
kyle
cosc19vs-at-menudo.uh.edu



Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics

by toms-at-ihs.com (Tom Stockman)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994

Keith Rogers (krogers-at-canopus.sim.es.com) wrote:

: And for the definitive answer regarding the usefulness of Flora Pride
: I've now seen postings which state: bad things happened, good things
: happened, no change occured.

And I'll add my experience; I went from years of no additives, fairly 
dirty plants (lots of organics), few fish (how'd that happen?), and 
some plants that were OK with these conditions to plants *immediately* 
turning brighter green and obviously much happier.

I decided that the iron especially was responsible.  A couple of local 
shops confirmed that my city water is iron-poor.

I'm now adding DIY CO2 & following this discussion with great interest!

----------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Stockman           toms-at-ihs.com

   ...there is nothing for a case of nerves
      like a case of beer.

         - Joan Goldstein



Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics

by jj-at-alice.att.com (jj, curmudgeon and all-around grouch)
Date: 2 Feb 94

I use a bit of Ferroplant once in a while, but other than that,
I mostly use mulm.

Seriously.

-- 
Copyright alice!jj 1994, all rights reserved, except transmission by USENET and like facilities granted. Said permission is granted only for complete copies that include this notice. Use on pay-for-read services or non-electronic media specifically disallowed. -------
Colored lights can hypnotize, shine in someone else's eyes
-----
jj-at-alice.att.com  Member HASA - Atheist Scum Division



Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics

by grn-at-alcove.apana.org.au (Geoffrey Newman)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 94

In article <NARTEN.94Jan30201954-at-abacus.albany.edu> Thomas Narten (narten-at-abacus.albany.edu) writes:
> What kind of trace element plant fertilizers are out there and what
> are people using?  I'd like to see a discussion started on this topic.
> Would those of you with experience please report on your experiences?

I use Sera Florena, mainly because it's readily available here, though
a little expensive.

I've also used plain, chelated iron in the past.

> Here is (what little!) I know:

> 0) I'm assuming that pretty much everyone stays away from fertilizers
> that contain phosphates/nitrates.  Some fertilzers contain them, so
> read all labels before buying. I'm also assuming people are using CO2
> so that trace element depletion becomes a concern.

Lots of those products with names like "Plant Booster" don't even say
what they contain.

I disagree that trace element depletion is only a concern for
CO2-injected tanks.

> 1) Iron is probably the most easily depleted element that tends to be
> in short supply.  I've confirmed that in my tanks by having
> deterioration (yellow leaves that die) reversed after adding iron
> supplements.	I've had very good experience using Coralife "Iron
> Supplement". I follow the instruction dumping 2.5 teaspoons in per
> week. An 8oz bottle runs $12 locally.

I tend to think they all exaggerate the dosage needed. Fe test kits
aren't expensive; buy one.

> Are cheaper alternatives available?  What about "Dexol" vitamin B-1?
> I've heard that is an acceptable form.

Have you ever tried chelated minerals from garden suppliers? They're
spectacularly cheap compared to the aquarium store potions. I
purchased a 250 gram pack of "Soluble Iron chelate" for $A10 which
Grant Gussie and I worked out would last me a couple of hundred years.

> 6) Dupla has three different additives, daily drops (containing
> elements that are unstable or toxic in higher concentratoins) and
> weekly DuplaPlant tablets plus Duplagen.  These seem to do the job
> quite well.  I guess I'm  looking for possible alternatives.
> --
> Thomas Narten
> narten-at-cs.albany.edu

--

 Geoffrey Newman
 grn-at-alcove.apana.org.au



Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics

by schuang-at-sdcc6.ucsd.edu (Kevin)
Date: 3 Feb 94

   Is the redness in red lava rock the correct form of iron that
plants can absorb?    Chances are,   I am just wishing here.

   I am pretty sure that my tank is lack of iron especially after
I started injecting CO2.    What are some of the less expensive
way of adding iron and trace elements to the tank?   Having a 
100 gal planted tank,   going the Dupla way is going to be
really expensive for me.     Isn't there any magic  rock,
stone or whatever that contains  most of the important trace
elements which will dissolve in the water over time?

-Kevin



Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics

by gks7938-at-trex.oscs.montana.edu (Keith Seyffarth)
Date: 4 Feb 1994

In article <60603-at-sdcc12.ucsd.edu>, schuang-at-sdcc6.ucsd.edu (Kevin) wrote:
> 
> 
>    Is the redness in red lava rock the correct form of iron that
> plants can absorb?    Chances are,   I am just wishing here.
> 

I have had success with this, but only in a few of my tanks.  One thing
that you may use as an indicator, is, if the rock is turning the water red,
then you are probably putting Iron into the water, otherwise, you are not. 
Like I sad, this has only worked in one of my tanks (and I have never used
CO2 injection).  

>    I am pretty sure that my tank is lack of iron especially after
> I started injecting CO2.    What are some of the less expensive
> way of adding iron and trace elements to the tank?   Having a 
> 100 gal planted tank,   going the Dupla way is going to be
> really expensive for me.     Isn't there any magic  rock,
> stone or whatever that contains  most of the important trace
> elements which will dissolve in the water over time?
> 

I have founs Marine Enterprises Trace Element Restorer and Ferro-Vit to be
very helpful and rather inexpensive.  

Keith S.  
gks7938-at-trex.oscs.montana.edu


Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics

by sasala-at-itd.itd.nrl.navy.mil (Thomas M. Sasala)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994

In article <2ijf1v$im6-at-canopus.sim.es.com> krogers-at-sim.es.com writes:
>narten-at-abacus.albany.edu (Thomas Narten) writes:
>
>>What kind of trace element plant fertilizers are out there and what
>>are people using?  I'd like to see a discussion started on this topic.
>>Would those of you with experience please report on your experiences?
>
>>2) Many of the stores I've been in sell Tetra "Flora Pride"
>>iron-intensive Fertilizer.  The lable of course don't say what is in
>>it. It contains "Soluble Potash (K2O)" and iron, plus a "well-balanced
>>combination of mineral nutrients and trace elements".
>>
>>Anyone know what is really in it, and more important, what is missing?
>
>DON'T GET THIS STUFF.  Last I saw, tests showed enormous amounts of
>nitrates and phosphates.  It was just a plain ol' terrestrial plant
>fertilizer on par with Miracle Gro.
>
        I agree with this.  I started using this stuff and had a serious
breakout of brown algea all over my tank, assumedly from the phosphates.

                                -T

Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics

by krogers-at-canopus.sim.es.com (Keith Rogers)
Date: 1 Feb 1994

bhaskar-at-brtph181.bnr.ca (Shaji Bhaskar) writes:

>In article <2ijf1v$im6-at-canopus.sim.es.com> krogers-at-sim.es.com writes:
>>narten-at-abacus.albany.edu (Thomas Narten) writes:
>>>2) Many of the stores I've been in sell Tetra "Flora Pride"
>>
>>DON'T GET THIS STUFF.  Last I saw, tests showed enormous amounts of
>>nitrates and phosphates.  It was just a plain ol' terrestrial plant
>>fertilizer on par with Miracle Gro.
>
>I just checked the label, it claims to have no nitrates or phosphates
>(N-P-K analysis 0-0-3).  My nitrate test kit shows zero nitrates when
>this fertilizer is used at twice the recommended dose.

Ok, I'm glad someone actually verified this.  The last container of it
I saw had no assay printed but an el-cheapo NO3 test showed massive
amounts of it.  The stuff was about 8 years old, though.  Perhaps we
were mistaken in the test results or perhaps they've changed their
formulation (or both).  

And for the definitive answer regarding the usefulness of Flora Pride
I've now seen postings which state: bad things happened, good things
happened, no change occured.

You gotta love it.
-- 
Keith Rogers
krogers-at-sim.es.com

Plant fertilizers for plant fanatics

by amcdermo-at-gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (Ashley McDermott)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 1994


This may seem weird to those that are paying large amounts of cash for 
iron supplements for their fresh water tanks.  I have been using an iron 
supplment meant for human consumption.  I found that Stanley makes a 
Ferrous Gluconate tablet that dissolves easily in water.  You can get 100 
tablets for under $3.00 CDN.  Each tablet contains 35mg of elemental 
iron.  I translated the name of the tablets to mean "sugar iron".  My 
plants seem to react well using only these tablets with no other chemicals 
added to the system.  

I have noticed no adverse reaction by the plants.  I have also noticed no 
ill effects on my frogs, shrimp, guppies, snails, alge eaters, goldfish 
or neon tetra's.

I would like to hear from others who have/will try something like this.  
It is certainly a lot cheaper than the bottled stuff (at least up here 
here the pet stores have not much for selection or competition)

--
_______________________________________________________________________
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:     /'|||'.||||(  >|||||||||||||. .||||||||||||||||||^||.`|||`\     :
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-----------------------------------------------------------------------

floss + UGF = minimum maintenance aquarium

by booth-at-hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM (George Booth)
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 1994
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria

In rec.aquaria, narten-at-percival.albany.edu (Thomas Narten) writes:

    Where can one find out which plants get the majority of their
    nutrients out of the substrate vs. directly out of the water?  

Probably only obscure plant biology texts. 

    Is it
    generally true that the fast growing plants (e.g., the ones I have to
    trim every other week -- hygro, valisinaria, foxtail, etc.) get most
    of their nutrients out the water while slower growing plants (anubias,
    crypts, etc.) rely much more on a good substrate?

I would not think so.  Anubias, for example, don't really need to have
root in the substrate - they are just as happy holding on to a rock. 

I would guess a better indicator would be the natural habitat they are
found in - plants found in sandy areas might get most of their nutrients
from the water, plants from muddy or bog areas might get more from the 
substrate.  

Further complicating things is that a lot of plants can grow emersed 
(leaves out of the water) as well as submersed.  Clearly, when they 
are emersed, they aren't getting much nutrition through the leaves 
(unless the Breatharians are on to something we don't know about).  
Perhaps they change their physiology when they go from submersed to 
emersed - they don't make the change very easily in my experience. 

For good success with plants, it makes sense to make sure that 
nutrients are available in both the substrate AND the water. 

=============================================================================
George L. Booth                   Founding Member, The Colorado Aquarium, Inc
booth-at-hplvec.lvld.hp.com           __          Aquatic Gardener's Association
Software Development Engineer     /  \  /\          Colorado Aquarium Society
Manufacturing Test Division    /\/    \/  \           Rainbowfish Study Group
Hewlett-Packard Company       /  \/\  /    \/\             Modern Aquascaping
Loveland, Colorado  _________/    \ \/      \ \___x__________________________
=============================================================================

floss + UGF = minimum maintenance aquarium

by Neil.Frank-at-launchpad.unc.edu (Neil Frank)
Date: 8 Jan 1994
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria


In rec.aquaria, narten-at-percival.albany.edu (Thomas Narten) writes:

    Where can one find out which plans get the majority of their
    Nutrients out of the substrate vs. directly out of the water?

In rec. aquaria, booth-at-hplev.LVLD.HP.COM (George Booth) replys:

    For good success with plants, it makes sense to make sure that
    nutrients are available in both the substrate AND the water.

-------------
The new consensus in the scientific community is that plants (in nature)
get most of their nutrients through roots.  There is an excellent article
by Diana Walstad in "The Aquatic Gardener," (Vol 4 no. 6, Nov-Dec, 1991)
which discusses this subject.  While plants can (and do) absorb nutrients
through their leaves, they are designed to obtain nutrients through their 
roots.  By reducing nutrients in the water column and increasing nutrients
in the substrate, the rooted plants are fed while algae are starved.  This
can be accomplished with selective nutrient reduction in the water
 ( of, for example, iron and other trace elements),
by using soil as part of the substrate.  It is also important to get nutrients
into the substrate so that they can be in a form which can be better
utilized by the plants.  This can also be accomplished
by allowing nutrients from the water to slowly circulate into the substrate, 
say with the help of substrate heating coils.  In any event, it 
may be more 'convenient'or 'practical' to replenish  depleted nutrients in
the aquarium by adding them to the water (e.g. via water changes, fish food, 
fertilizers), but this may not be the 'optimum' approach.  

While some plants may be more efficient at removing nutrients from the water,
I do not know of any articles which address this subject (except
for floating plants).  I suspect that
the ratio of leaves to roots is a good indicator.  Thus amazon sword plants
will make better relative use of their roots than stem plants (e.g. Hygrophila)
or Vallisneria.  I do not know, however, if the leaves of stem plants are more
efficient than the leaves of Echinodorus.
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80

Plant food??

by ac554-at-FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Whittaker)
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 1994
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria


In a previous article, mcnei002-at-maroon.tc.umn.edu (Kenneth J McNeil) says:

>>booth-at-lvld.hp.com (George Booth) writes:
>
>>>Mike Keer (keer-at-lemahp6.epfl.ch) wrote:
>>> Why does he sell a ridiculous small bottle of his cure (at a 
>>> ridiculous high price), when he knows pertinently that we need to 
>>> use it each day?  Mystery...
>
>>It is highly concentrated so you only need to use a small amount each 
>>day.  We only add 4 *drops* per day to each of our 350 liter tanks. 
>>Larger "bulk" sizes of DuplaPlant-24 are available which makes the 
>>"per dose" cost very reasonable and in most cases less than the price
>>of the stuff which doesn't work very well.  But you have to "invest"
>>a lot up front. 
>
>>> I'm wondering if Tetra's fertilizer has a kind of "kelator" (sp?) to avoid 
>>> Fe++ becoming Fe+++ too quickly. 
>
>>I don't know. It is very difficult to get useful information from
>>the Tetra representatives in the U.S.  Maybe you could contact the
>>"home office" and find out for us. 
>
>Why not just use chelated iron to begin with? Ciba-Geigy supplies 
>chelated iron as a 10% iron mix. My plants have been doing reasonably 
>well with just adding iron after every water change using the chelated 
>iron. I based the iron concentration on the FloraPride concentrations 
>listed on the side of the bottle. The bottle states that the source of 
>the iron is FeSO4 (I think, I'm at work and the bottle is at home). The 
>FloraPride mix also has additional potassium and sulfur, but I have only been
>using the chelated iron. The name of the mix is Sequestrine 330 Fe and 
>can usually be purchased from horticulture supply houses (try Florist's 
>supplies in the yellow pages). You get a lifetime supply (5 pounds) for 
>about $20.00 and I make up a 2 liter concentrate that uses 6 grams. I then 
>use 10 mL/ 10 gallon water change.  
>
>So:
>Would I be better off using FeSO4 (Fe++) instead of the sequestered iron?
>
>If I continue to use the sequestered iron would adding it daily make any 
>real difference to uptake by the plants? They are currently only getting 
>iron addition after every water change, every 2 weeks.
>Ken
>

I've been trying to convince hobbyists to use trace mineral
supplements from hydroponic shops/ gardening centers for years
now. However, people seem to prefer to spend 10 to 20 times what
is necessary to furnish their plants with these minerals.

The Ciba-Geigy mixture- does it contain only iron? Is it chelated
with EDTA, DTPA or EDDHA? EDDHA is best, then DTPA or a combination
of EDTA and DTPA, and lastly EDTA. You should be aware that FeEDTA
does break down over time, and after two weeks one may loose up to
80% to decomposition. Dosing once or twice a week should be fine.
Light also quickens decomposition, so keep your solution mix in
darkness. I have no idea how long that two liters of solution will
last. I make up my solution fresh each time I dose. It only takes
30 seconds.

The trace mineral mix that I use contains the following:


ELEMENT  % by WEIGHT

iron        7
manganese   2
zinc        0.4
copper      0.1
DTPA       13
boron       1.3
molybdenum  0.06
EDTA       42

The cost is about $28 U.S. for 2 kilograms.

If the iron is in the form of FESO4, it will not last much longer
than a day in solution in the tank. Probably less. One experiment
has shown that at lower pH, iron absorption is greater and leaf
colour improves. The experiment was done using terrestrial plants. 

You don't want to add too much iron supplement. I try to bring the
level in the tank up to about 0.3 ppm iron.
--
 


Plant food??

by booth-at-lvld.hp.com (George Booth)
Date: 27 Sep 1994
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria

Kenneth J McNeil (mcnei002-at-maroon.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
> Why not just use chelated iron to begin with? 

Dupla products supply iron AND essential trace elements IN THE CORRECT
PROPORTIONS.  An excess of a trace element is as bad or worse than too
little.  Trace elements can be toxic in high concentrations.  Too much
of one trace element will block the uptake of other trace elements.  For
example, I believe I've read that too much iron will block the uptake of 
manganese and will cause "Christmas Tree Disease" (pale leaves with 
distinct green veins).  Also, I think that excess nitrates will block
the uptake of iron.  Etc. 

Ya gots ta be careful here, folks. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
George Booth                         "The power of accurate observation is 
booth-at-hplvec.lvld.hp.com              commonly called cynicism by those who 
Freshwater Plant Tank Technology      have not got it" - George Bernard Shaw.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[F] What temp for Hygrophila polysperma?

by booth-at-lvld.hp.com (George Booth)
Date: 27 Sep 1994
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria

ELAINE THOMPSON (eethomp-at-welchlink.welch.jhu.edu) wrote:
> Should I try adding more of the trace element 
> stuff (not the iron fertilizer)?

Sometimes holes in leaves are due to a lack of potassium.  Fish food 
may supply adequate levels of K, but it's guesswork.  

Plants need trace elements.  Your tapwater may or may not have the 
required elements.  Here is a table of what plants need and the relative
proportions of the major items.  If you can account for a source
of all the items, your plants should do well.  You might call the
water department and get an analysis of your water supply (they should
do this for free since you're a taxpayer). 



FW plant micronutrient formula

by sywang-at-whale.st.usm.edu (Shiao Y. Wang)
Date: 4 Dec 1994
Newsgroup: alt.aquaria


Some folks asked about the micronutrient mix I use for freshwater plants.
Please note that I'm posting what I'm using which seems to be supporting
healthy plant growth in my tank.

EDTA sodium ferric salt (chelated iron)       40 g
Na2MoO4.2H2O (molybdenum)                    250 mg
H3BO3        (boron)                           3 g
MnCl2.4H2O   (manganese)                      10 g
ZnSO4.7H2O   (zinc)                            2 g
CoCl2.6H2O   (cobalt)                         25 mg
CuSO4.5H2O   (copper)                         25 mg

I dissolve the above in one liter of water and use 10 ml when I change
approx 30 gal of water. At this dosage in distilled water, it produces a
reading of approx 0.1 mg/liter (ppm) using the Hach iron test kit (model
IR-24). This formula is based on the B5 plant tissue culture media
developed by Gamborg, Miller and Ojima (1968. Exp. Cell Res.
50:151-158). No particular reason why I picked this one, it's one of
several in a book called Plant Tissue Culture Manual. All of the media
contain the same micronutrients but in different proportions. As I learn
about raising aquatic plants I'm sure I'll be trying other formulations.

I mentioned that my plants are growing well, I should qualify that. The
major plants I have are Echinodorus major and E. barthii, Cryptocoryne
becketii, Aponogeton undulatus, Rotala macrandra, Nymphaea sp.,
Microsorium pteropus and Hydrocotyle leucocephala. I had some Trichomanes
javanicum but it died in about a month. The only plant I've had luck
reproducing is Aponogeton undulatus.

This is my first venture into DIY micronutrients. If anyone has any
suggestions or pointers, I'd very much like to hear from you.

Shiao Wang
University of Southern Mississippi
sywang-at-whale.st.usm.edu



[Q][F]Plants: 3 Questions

by booth-at-lvld.hp.com (George Booth)
Date: 30 Nov 1994
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria

Erik Olson ((e-mail)) wrote:
> I still haven't run out of my Dupla stuff, but I'm
> game for trying the Kent or Sera.

I tried some of the Sera stuff in our 55 gal tank and was unimpressed. 
Didn't seem to help the plants at all and was actually more costly 
than Dupla.  

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
George Booth                         "Nothing in the world is more dangerous 
booth-at-hplvec.lvld.hp.com             than sincere ignorance and conscientious 
Freshwater Plant Tank Technology     stupidity" - Martin Luther King, Jr. 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


[PLANT] Aquatic Plant Cultivation Methods

by deadfish-at-netcom.com (Bruce Hallman)
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria

Follow up to Jim Kelly's Aquatic Plant Cultivation Methods post:

I went looking for fertilizer tablets mentioned in Jim Kelly's article and
found....  

None of the big chain hardware stores in the San Francisco Bay area carry
the Osmocoat tablets which Jim found.  I checked Orchard Supply &
Hardware, Home Depo. and Home Base.  They all carry the Jobe tree tablets,
which list chlorine as an ingredient! 

I did find the Osmocote tablets at the big nursury Navalettes, on Monument
Blvd., in Concord, CA.  They also carry a fertilizer tablet called
Best-Tabs which seems very similar.  They sold the tabs individually for
$0.19 per each, so they are cheap. 

They are made by J.R. Simplot Co. 
                 P.O. Box 198
                 Lathrop, CA 95330 

Here are the ingredients: 

         _Best-Tabs_ planting tablets 20? gram tablets 

20% nitrogen (1.7% Ammoniacal, 5.3% soluble, 13% insoluble) 
10% phosphoric acid 
5% potash
1.5% calcium 
0.5% magnesium 
2.5% sulfur 
0.02% boron 
0.75% copper 
0.75% iron 
0.25% manganese 
0.25% zinc 

As you can see, there are a few trace elements added.  What is
"Ammoniacal" nitrogen (I think I can guess).  The nitrifying bacteria
would clean that up quick I expect.  Is the copper, manganese, zinc, etc..
potentially toxic? 









-- 
 '     *   . .      '           +         `  .        ) *     ' bruce hallman
 . +   .        ,    * ' .      '     . `     . *     .   deadfish-at-netcom.com
. _/_/ ' _/_/_/  _/  _/_/   '   NEW! => URL http://www.netgate.net/~deadfish/


[PLANT] Aquatic Plant Cultivation Methods

by ac554-at-FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Whittaker)
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995


In a previous posting, Bruce Hallman (deadfish-at-netcom.com) writes:
> Follow up to Jim Kelly's Aquatic Plant Cultivation Methods post:
> 
> I went looking for fertilizer tablets mentioned in Jim Kelly's article and
> found....  
> 
> None of the big chain hardware stores in the San Francisco Bay area carry
> the Osmocoat tablets which Jim found.  I checked Orchard Supply &
> Hardware, Home Depo. and Home Base.  They all carry the Jobe tree tablets,
> which list chlorine as an ingredient! 
> 
> I did find the Osmocote tablets at the big nursury Navalettes, on Monument
> Blvd., in Concord, CA.  They also carry a fertilizer tablet called
> Best-Tabs which seems very similar.  They sold the tabs individually for
> $0.19 per each, so they are cheap. 
> 
> They are made by J.R. Simplot Co. 
>                  P.O. Box 198
>                  Lathrop, CA 95330 
> 
> Here are the ingredients: 
> 
>          _Best-Tabs_ planting tablets 20? gram tablets 
> 
> 20% nitrogen (1.7% Ammoniacal, 5.3% soluble, 13% insoluble) 
> 10% phosphoric acid 
> 5% potash
> 1.5% calcium 
> 0.5% magnesium 
> 2.5% sulfur 
> 0.02% boron 
> 0.75% copper 
> 0.75% iron 
> 0.25% manganese 
> 0.25% zinc 
> 
> As you can see, there are a few trace elements added.  What is
> "Ammoniacal" nitrogen (I think I can guess).  The nitrifying bacteria
> would clean that up quick I expect.  Is the copper, manganese, zinc, etc..
> potentially toxic? 

One 20 gram tablet in a 25 to 50 gallon tank could be potentially
lethal in terms of the amount of copper, were it to dissolve in
solution say 50% before the first water change. But most likely it
seeps into solution slowly. It is missing molybdenum. 
--
 


Laterite and Micronized

by David Randall <76535.2776-at-compuserve.com>
Date: 12 Apr 95

Steve,

 >>  I don't know much about micronized iron or laterite. Could you fill me
in? Is that the stuff used for salt water reef set-ups? What is laterite? a
kind of mineral or just coarse sand/gravel? Is it possible to find less
expensive supplies from regular plant retail outlets than the high priced
aquarium stuff? <<

 Laterite is an iron rich tropical clay.  It serves two purposes.  First it is
a source of iron.  Second, it serves as a chemical attachment point or
chelator for trace elements that enter the substrate through supplementation
at a later date.  This is probably the more important purpose.  Peat, potting
soil, etc can serve a similar purpose, because of their organic component can
cause algae problems, particularly in high light situations.

 Micronized Iron is a terrestrial plant supplement specifically used for
African Violets made by Lusterleaf Co.  It is basically very fine iron
filings.

 For use in a pot for potting up a specific plant, I use laterite as an iron
source more than as a chelating site. In my experience, the average potted
plant needs repotting often enough (due to rapid growth) that it stands little
chance of exhausting the original nutrients supplied to it. This is why I
often use Micronized Iron instead of laterite in this application.  It's a lot
cheaper, and it doesn't "hurt" when I have to throw it away!<g>

  E-mail from: Karen Randall, 12-Apr-1995


Chelated iron and rusty nails

by nfrank-at-parsifal.nando.net (Neil Frank)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95

>George wrote:
>
>> We need to provide a source of iron in a form easily usable by plants
>> (Fe++, not Fe+++) by root uptake AND leaf uptake.

This is true. 

>>  It should be clear
>> to everyone here that a lot of plants (especially fast growing stem
>> plants like Rotala and Alternanthera sp.) don't really use their roots
>> for much nutrient uptake.  

In general stem plants are fast growing and do not depend on their roots for
nutrient uptake.  but I never thought of Rotala and Alternantera as falling
into this growth category.

>>Plants that get nutrients through their
>> roots need the nurients to be bound to organic substances (chelated)

This is not true!!  Plants that get their nutrients through their roots CAN
get the nutrients (like iron) that are bound to organic substances, but do
not NEED to get them that way.  Chelation is one way to keep the nutrients
soluble and accessible.
Iron oxide will precipitate when added in solution to an aquarium.

>> Let's keep in mind that there are complex chemical processes taking
>> place in the substrate that go far beyond what we understand.
True

>>  A rusty ten-penny nail is not going to get you there. 

I would not be so quick to draw that conclusion!  
Another effective way to provide iron to plant roots is through reduction of
Fe+++ to Fe++.  This takes place in an oxygen limited environment, like a
substrate without much circulation. Maybe chelated iron is needed to
suplement the initial iron provided by laterite in a system with undergravel
circulation, but other strategies can be used in other systems. Although I
have not tried to use a rusty nail, I have talked to successful plant
growers that use such small pieces of metallic objects in the substrate.
Others on the net use soil (which contains iron) and some have even
suggested the use of steel wool. Small pieces sounds like it could be very
beneficial. The precipitates from iron oxide solutions will also become
available to plants through chemical changes in a reduced environment. IMHO
(i.e. I am not a chemist), the problem with these latter methods is the
possiblity of providing TOO MUCH iron and other micronutrients.

- --Neil

micronutrient mix

by krombhol-at-felix.TECLink.Net (Paul Krombholz)
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995

Here is a micronutrient solution formula that I have been using.  I mixed
up a gallon of it once, and I will probably pass most of that on to my
daughter, if she is ever interested in growing plants.  The KCl is probably
not necessary because there is always enough chloride around.  Cobalt is
not in this mix because plants are not known to need it, only nitrogen
fixing organisms need cobalt, and animals that need vitamin B12, which
contains cobalt.

I use this mix at 4 cc per gallon, and I have had plenty of evidence that,
if I don't use it, I get deficiency symptoms and retarded growth.  The
symptoms are retarded meristematic growth resulting in small, distorted
leaves and short stubby roots.  Severe deficiency results in meristematic
death of both roots and leaves.  I have seen these symptoms on a number of
occasions using topsoil and tapwater, and they look like boron deficiency
symptoms to me, but I have not yet found the time to set up an experiment
to prove it.



Salt                             mg/L     Salt                  Mg/L
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
KCl (provides chloride ion)     3728    ZnSO4.7H2O               575
H3BO3                           1546    CuSO4.5H2O               125
MnSO4.H2O                       845     (NH4)6MO7O24.4H2O        18.4

Paul Krombholz                  Tougaloo College, Tougaloo, MS  39174

Nutrient stability

by ac554-at-freenet.carleton.ca (David Whittaker)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995

John Y. Ching writes....

>I know that Dupla is a proponent of the daily Fe regime. How come other
>brands recommand weekly or bi-weekly Fe feeding with water change?
>How long do the nutrients remain available to my plants in the aquarium
>water anyway?


The half-life of FeEDTA is anywhere from three to ten days in an
circulating nutrient solution. Light levels affect its stability as
does pH. I'm guessing that other chelated metals are more stable than
FeEDTA, but this may be incorrect.


Substrate Gold

by bickford-at-ipa.net (Jay Bickford)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996

>
>From: "Kaycee K. Byron" <kb2-at-srv.net>
>Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 23:10:23 -0700
>Subject: Re: Substrate
>
>>Karen Randall
>>Aquatic Gardeners Assoc.
>>Boston, MA
>>
>>supplier of laterite for aquarium use that I know of is Karl 
>>Schoeller's(sp?) Substrate Gold.  While I have no personal 
>>experience with this one, I have read good reports about it from 
>>some people.
>
>Does anyone know where to get  Substrate Gold  I wanted to give it a try and
>now I can't find the article I read about it in?
>
Kaycee,

You can contact Karl Schoeler at:

                                  K.R. Schoeler Enterprises. Inc.
                                  241 County Road 42
                                  Apple Valley, MN. 55124
                                  Phone:612-432-9608

Karl had also posted here last month. He was willing to field questions
regarding "Substrate Gold" and "Liquid Gold." His E-Mail address is:

                                  KARL241-at-gnn.com

If you do give it a try, let us know what you think of it. I haven't
personally run across anyone who has had first hand experience with it.

Regards,

Jay Bickford

PMDD recipe

by Kevin Conlin <kcconlin-at-cae.ca>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996

Back by popular demand!

  1 Tbsp Chelated Trace Element Mix (7% Iron + B, Mn, Mo, Zn, Cu)
  2 Tsp K2SO4 (potassium sulfate)
  1 Tsp KNO3 (potassium nitrate)
  2.5 Tbsp MgSO4.7H2O (fully hydrated magnesium sulfate, aka epsom salts)
  300mL distilled H2O
  0.5mL 9M HCl (optional)

Dissolve the trace element mix in 150mL distilled water, then add the
remaining ingredients.  Add additional water to make 300mL solution.
The HCl helps prevent the growth of fungus and may be omitted if the
mix is kept in the refrigerator (sorbic acid may work better; anyone
care to try?).  Add enough mix to the tank every day
to keep the Fe level at about 0.1ppm (the exact amount will have to be
determined by experimentation, but 3mL per 100L tank water is about
right for a tank with rapidly growing plants).  Measure nitrate levels
regularly, and adjust the amount of KNO3 in the mix to maintain about
5-10ppm (this step is fairly important, and for some it may be more
practical to dose the macronutrients separately).  If test kits
are not available, satisfactory results can be obtained by adding 1mL
mix to 10L replacement water during water changes.  Most of the
ingredients can be purchased at hydroponics shops or garden supply
stores.  Epsom salts are available inexpensively at pharmacies.

If your local trace element mix has 4% Fe plus Mg (in addition to B, Mn,
etc), you'll need to modify the recipe slightly by omitting the epsom
salts and increasing the amount of trace element mix slightly.

With a little legwork, you should be able to get a lifetime supply
of the chemicals for about $25, much less if you get a few friends together
and buy the stuff in 50lb bags.   For a few hundred bucks you could
treat one of the smaller Great Lakes.
- --
Kevin Conlin   kcconlin-at-cae.ca   "We're Canadians.  We HAVE to be polite"
Finger as332-at-freenet.carleton.ca for PGP public key.


Magnesium

by krandall-at-world.std.com (Karen A Randall)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996

I sent our discussion on Magnesium to Claus Christensen for his 
comments.  Here is his response:

Magnesium in Aquarium
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

First of all Magnesium is a very important fertiliser for all 
plants!
Also for Aquarium plants!

The point is that many places in the world they get to much or to 
little of Mg from the tap water!

If you are living in an area with to little Mg it certainly will 
help the plant if you add it!
Opposite if you are living in an area with too much Mg it change 
for the worse!
So the results depend of what you already have!

Plants can grow in a wide range but optimum condition for many 
aquarium 
plants is between 5 and 25 mg/l. 
NB It is easy to find plants living outside this interval.

Magnesium (Mg) can block the uptake of some other nutrient! 
Specially it blocks for Potassium (K) which is VERY important 
nutrient for water plants!
I think it is one of the reasons when additions are negative!
Magnesium (Mg) corresponds also with Calcium (Ca).
 
Magnesium is not very easy to measure for an aquarium owner. 
In Europe we can get an analyse from the local authority.

Karen Randall
Aquatic Gardeners Assoc.
Boston, MA


tetrasodium ...

by eworobe-at-cc.UManitoba.CA
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997

EDTA is a chelator. The word chelator comes from the Greek word 'chele', 
meaning claw. This is what EDTA does. It acts as a 'claw' to grab cations 
such as Fe and prevent them from precipitating out of your water. The 
interesting thing about EDTA is that unless the solubility of the cation 
in question is low (such as for Fe) then EDTA actually decreases its 
availability to the plant.
To use it, dissolve a known amount of EDTA in water and then dissolve an 
equal amount of an Fe compound such as FeCl3. The amounts used should be 
based on MOLES as EDTA binds cations (regardless of their charge) at a 1 
to 1 ratio.
One other point, EDTA degrades in the presence of light so should be kept 
in a dark bottle.

dave.

Osmocote

by "Jim Burrows" <jburrows/ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997

I picked up a "sample size" at my local Home Depot (or was that Biulder's
Emporioum?) for about $1.99 or so which will probably last me about 5 years
at the rate I'm going.  One thing I did notice is that if the balls are
left on the surface of the gravel, you will get more algae, but used deep
in the gravel, I noticed no increase that my SAE's and Otto's couldn't keep
up with (IME). What I believe to be the best thing about Osmocote is the
fact that it is a timed release fertilizer and comes in small balls that
sink. There may be brands with better numbers that are also time-released,
but I couldn't find them on that trip and haven't looked since.

Jim

Easy RMDD Source

by krandall/world.std.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997

Jens Stoevlbaek wrote:

>Beware of the Tropica fertilizer. It's very low in iron and the plants
>that it helped most in my tank were the thready/hairy algae.
>By the way, it seems that it costs slighty less in the US than here
>in Denmark.

Personally, I've been very happy with Mastergrow.  Since it does not
contain either phosphate or nitrate, there is no reason that it should
contribute to the growth of algae in a tank.  I suspect  that if you have
an algae problem, you may have higher macro nutrient levels in your tank
than are optimal.  According to Tropica, Mastergrow is formulated so that
if you have adequate levels of iron in your tank, the other micronutrients
are in proper proportion.  You may need more or less than the "recommended"
dose based on the growth rate of the plants in your tank.  

No trace element mix can make up for other growth limiting (or algae
encouraging) conditions in the tank.

Actually, the big difference between Mastergrow, and the Sears/Conlin
recipe for PMDD is that they suggest adding nitrate in instances where
plants are nitrate limited, and therefore unable to use up the available
supply of phosphate.  It has been their finding, (and I am pretty sure they
are right) that the surest method of algae control is to make sure that all
the macro and micro nutrient needs of the plants are met, while keeping
phosphate as the growth limiting nutrient.


Karen Randall
Aquatic Gardeners Association


GAC and plants?

by jamesl1033/aol.com (JamesL1033)
Date: 23 Apr 1997
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants

I've run some tests with chelated iron and activated carbon.  Carbon does
remove chelated iron.  I would also assume it removes other chelated trace
elements.  BUT.  Many aquarists use carbon and have great planted
aquariums.  In this group some add trace elements and some do not<G>. 
OTOH, some planted tanks seem to suffer poor growth when carbon is used. 
Much depends on the use of trace elements, the gravel fertility, water
changes and what is in the water you are using, fish feeding and some
other things I forgot but others will remember<G>.  I have planted aquaria
here in the lab w/ carbon and a great planted tank at home w/o carbon. 
Both do well.  You can see my tank by going to www.aqualink.com/ then
click on "columns" then go to Layton Lab Report.  The latest report has a
jpeg of my aquarium.  The AOL browser has trouble displaying the jpegs,
however.

Regards,

Jim Layton
Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, Inc.


water conditioners

by George Booth <booth/hpmtlgb1.lvld.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997

> > conditioners we use adversely affect the macro and trace elements we add
> > at water changes?  Thanks in advance.
> 
> I don't know the answer to this, so I'll sit on the sideline and cheer for
> George.

Oh, I was supposed to get this one?

It depends to a great deal on which water conditioner you use. If it's
a simple dechlorinator, there is no problem.  If it does something
with "heavy metals", it will probably affect trace elements like iron.
Some even have phosphates as buffers (StressCoat, I believe).  

I would recommend NOT using the fancier water conditioners unless you
have a very good reason. Perhaps the APD can suggest some which have
proven to be safe.  We personally use Duplagan and have had very good
luck with it (I'm not sure what it's doing for us but you can't argue
with superstition).  

Another option is to pretreat the water in a holding tank before
adding it to the aquarium.  Allow the conditioner to condition all it
wants (hopefully neutralizing itself).  Then when the pure, fresh <g>
water is added to the tank, it won't affect the trace element
additions.  However, I bet this wouldn't work because there will still
probably be some active conditioner left even after it has already
conditioned the water. Maybe running it through phosphate-free GAC on
the way to the tank would help.

If only the manufacturers of these magic potions would be more
explicit in their information ...

Sometimes it's obvious why a question never got answered <g>

George Booth in Ft. Collins, Colorado (booth-at-fii.com)

Jobes Plant Sticks

by Tim Mullins <tmullins/telerama.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998
To: Aquatic Plants List <Aquatic-Plants/ActWin.com>

Awhile ago someone mentioned
occasionally using Jobes Plant
Sticks with a 16-2-6 formulation
to help fertilize specific plants
(it might have been the oft
misquoted Karen Randell).

I've found Jobes Houseplant Sticks
with 13-4-5 and Jobes Large Houseplant
Sticks with 14-3-7, but nothing with
P as low as 2.  Does anyone know
how Jobes labels the 16-2-6 variety? 

Also, by way of an experiment, I
buried 1/3 of a 13-4-5 stick 1.5"
deep in gravel in a small 3" deep
pot. I then put the lone pot in a
bare 5 gallon kept at 80 degrees
and stirred with a 160 g/hr powerhead.
Initially PO4 was well under 
.05mg/ltr. But, within 5 days, PO4
had climbed to over .6mg/ltr. WOW!
Anyone else found PO4 leakage to be a
problem? Are there ways to minimize
leakage?

Thanks,  Tim Mullins - Pittsburgh
 

Oxidation of trace elements

by Paul Sears <psears/nrn1.NRCan.gc.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997

        I have noticed many times in the APD concerns about oxidation
of trace elements for plants, and a few recent posts have brought the
subject up again.  For almost all of the things plants need, oxidation
cannot be a problem.  I'll go through the list:

K+, Ca++, Mg++, PO4---, NO3-

Not really "trace" elements, and fully oxidised in the forms above.
Cannot be oxidised further.

Cu++, Zn++

No higher oxidation states available, (Cu+++ does exist, but will not
be generated in an aquarium).

Mo, B

Present as molybdates and borates, i.e., already fully oxidised.

Fe++

Can easily be oxidised to Fe+++ in solution, because the Fe(III)oxo-
hydroxide has very low solubility.  The solution is to chelate the
stuff, but I suspect the chelate used is the Fe+++ one.  The problem
to be dealt with is insolubility, not the oxidation state.  Dave Huebert
mentioned that there was no evidence that Fe+++ was useless to plants,
and I'm not surprised.  That was a question that I asked a while ago,
and that was not answered - I'm glad it has come up now.

Mn++

Generally present as Mn++.  There are higher oxidation states (e.g.,
permanganate), but the only one that could be of interest to us is Mn(IV),
which _could_ form as MnO2, because that has very low solubility.  It
is a pretty strong oxidising agent in acidic solutions, and I don't
think we have to worry about it forming anywhere there is organic
material.


I have drawn a distinction between the ion M++ and the oxidation state
M(II), say, because in a lot of cases the metals aren't there as ions,
there are covalent bonds to other atoms (borates are a good example
definitely B(III), but not B+++).

Quit worrying about it!

- -- 
Paul Sears        Ottawa, Canada


Seachem - Flourish and their water conditioner? Any good?

by Steve Pushak <teban/nospam.powersonic.bc.ca>
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants

Robert Marshall wrote:
> 
> I have purchased Seachem - Flourish - has anyone used this and is it any
> good.
> A 250 bottle treats 12,000 gallons - seems alots.
> 
> Same with their water conditioner that removes chlorine, etc.

I have used Flourish in the past. It is very concentrated and primarily
a micronutrient supplement. The recommended dosage is probably a little
too high for iron. I used it in conjunction with other minerals like
potassium (sulphate), magnesium (sulphate), (potassium) nitrate and
calcium (carbonate). I don't use it at present since my soil/peat
substrate design supplies adequate iron. Check out the how-to section of
my website for specifics.

Flourish is one of the most economical aquatic plant fertilizers however
if you have soft water, you probably need additional minerals as
mentioned above. The only more economical source of trace minerals is
soil or the chelated trace nutrient powders used by the PMDD recipe (see
nutrients on the Krib website)

-- 
Steve Pushak teban-at-powersonic.bc.anti-spam.ca 

Visit "Steve's Aquatic Page" http://home.infinet.net/teban/
 for lots of pics, tips and links for aquatic gardening

Aquatic Gardeners Association


PMDD Alternative/ Liquidoser

by larry/creative.net (Larry Frank)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998

Here's an interesting product for the PMD formulators out there. There is a
product from hw Weigandt Gmbh called ferro vit. Its description is a
chelated Iron fertilizer for plants. It is availble from many of the mail
order houses in the US, and I have found it at a few aquarium shops in the
SF bay area. It cost $19.95 U.S for 1000ml, $6.95 for 250 ml mail order.
This compares to Duplaplant 24 from the same catalog for 39.95 for 100ml.
So about 20 times cheaper then the Dupla product. (miravit is their vitamin
trace element formulation) I sent for the analysis this is what I was
given:

Analysis of: hw ferro Vit             :mira vit


Iron            Fe      1605    ppm     500
Magnesium       Mg      500     ppm     300
Manganese       MN      250     ppm     250
Copper          Cu      250     ppm     250
Molybdenium     Mo      50      ppm     50
Zinc            Zn      50      ppm     50
Boron           B       50      ppm     50
Iodine          I       6.25    ppm     1.54
Bromine         Br      4.03    ppm     10
Potassium       K       3.90    ppm     5.8
Sodium          Na      1.79    ppm     0
Rubidium        Rb      1.70    ppm     4.24
Flouride        F       1.27    ppm     3.13
Caesium         Cs      0.88    ppm     2.20
Strontium       Sr      0.79    ppm     0.25
Nickel          Ni      0.63    ppm     1.54
Cobalt          Co      0.55    ppm     0.65
Chromium        Cr      0.45    ppm     1.00
Lithium         Li      0.39    ppm     1.00
Selenium        Se      0.24    ppm     0.60
Bismut          Bi      0.22    ppm     0.40
Arsenic         As      0.19    ppm     0.50
Vanadium        V       0.16    ppm     0.50
Methyl
 p-hydroxydbenzonat      1000   ppm     0
Ethylenediamine-
tetraacetic acid         15546  ppm     8350

solvent H20                             solvent H2O


Maybe someone can help me calculate how to mix this to create the
equivalent to Dupla drops and/or the equivalent to PMDD.?

Also is any one familiar  with Eheim's liquidoser. It looks like their fish
feeder with a liquid proof rotating container. Does it work well?


Thanks Larry

plant cuttings die without chelated iron?? ;-)

by rjw/aluxs.micro.lucent.com (Ronald Wozniak)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98

>Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:02:52 -0700
>From: Steve Pushak <teban-at-powersonic.bc.ca>
>Subject: plant cuttings die without chelated iron?? ;-)
>
>George wrote:
>> Oh, sure, not adding Dupla drops for a few weeks is VERY reasonable.  
>> Let me run right home and start killing my plants.
>
>Now don't panic George! (note smiley, pls)
>
>Are you saying that you believe that many of your plants which have
>established root systems would die without any chelated iron additions
>for 2 weeks? Perhaps you could resume the iron sometime between the time
>the plants stop growing perceptibly and the time they turn to mush from
>lack of iron!

- - Snip------

Steve, I just did your experiment!  I just got back from a two week vacation
and I have not added any chelated iron (via PMDD). I follow most of the
Dupla principles as outlined by George. (i.e. laterite, etc, but no heating
cables yet.)

I've posted a couple of times in the past about the use of "Sunset
Hygro" as a canary plant to warn one of impending nutrient deficiencies.
The plant has a distint pink/redish color when growing conditions are good.
The plant grows relatively quick, so they slow problems before most of my
other plants.

Here what I've observed so far.  The plants are not significantly different.
All the plants are growing at about same rate as they have had for the last two
years. The "Sunset Hygros" colors are vibrant (good). So my plants haven't
turned to mush yet. I've notice a increase of cyanobacteria (green spot algae)
on the anubius leaves which is consistent with not keeping the nitrates at 
the proper level (as outlined in Sears and Conlins PMDD method.) Since my aquarium
has been stable for quite a while, I'd suspect I would have to wait a lot longer
than two weeks to see the results that Steve is looking for.

I did measure my iron levels before I left using a Hach IR-24 test kit.
(BTW a great & sufficiently accurate test kit, but expensive.) I'll retest
the water tonight and see if there's any changes.

- ---------------
Ron Wozniak  Allentown PA, USA
rjwozniak-at-lucent.com
AGA member


Osmocote experiments

by Neil Frank <nfrank/mindspring.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997
To: Aquatic-Plants/actwin.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>   As I write, I'm looking at a 20 High that I set up about 6-8 months
>ago. Last week I sold a Mermaid plant out of that tank and when I
>uprooted it, up came 3 beads. The beads are not much smaller than when I
>put them in there. Part of this reason COULD be because they might have
>swollen a bit. Anyway, this particular tank has no filter on it and the
>water is still clear. 

Dan, 
I have used Osmokote myself a few years ago... but did not follow up with
any intensive study or with as much intensity as you.  I have both buried it
in the substrate for underwater plants (a logical way to do it) and kept it
on top when growing emersed plants. What I remember noticing for the latter
was that the plastic capsules stayed intact, but lost their contents. If I
squeezed them, they collapsed. This suggests that their contents are water
soluble. I think I stopped using it for underwater substrates because I
think it contains sulfates.

>   Actually, uprooting these beads happens often and I have never tried
>to rebury them in the substrate. I mention this because I checked some
>other tanks where I know I have brought up many beads, yet I no longer
>see them. This might suggest they dissolve faster above the substrate or
>my eyesight isn't so hot.

 Please feel the beads in your underwater tank to see if they may be empty.

 I'll try to pay more attention to the  beads I
>just uncovered and see if I can see them disintegrate and over what
>period of time.
>   I suspect it would be easy enough to see how long they last in the
>substrate, if some were buried in the substrate against the front glass.

Yes and no, because of what I mentioned above. Unless the plastic dissolves,
the capsules will appear to still be there.


>   Also, I have been getting a lot of e-mail on how much Osmocote to use
>in the substrate. This has been a complete guess on my part, but the
>Osmocote comes with a little plastic spoon (looks to be about a tsp.). I
>have been using  about 1 level spoon per sq. ft.

You can estimate the amount of fertilizer in 1 level spoon by weighing its
contents and then running the calculations based on the % contents. I do not
have time at the moment, but I can do this when I get a change. This amount
can then be compared to a small piece (like 1/2 inch) of jobes plant stick
or plant tabs or other NPK fertilizers which I think would give similar
results). I  feel comfortable with the latter or even use of the osmokote
provided that they are used in SMALL quantities. 

I am still interested in getting a good way to judge the speed of time
release. Another method would be to test for nitrogen or phosphates using a
concentrated amount of the capsules in a small container of water. Here is
the experiment for someone to try:
a) bury some capsules under some sand under water, and in a separate
container b) place them in water. A small jar would be fine with a teaspoon
of capsules. Althought the concentrations are going to be higher than what
we want in an aquarium, they should be high enough to see quick results with
a test kit. The concentration can be tested on a daily basis and the change
in levels can be plotted over time. The amount of material used should not
be so much to cause the test kit to max out. i.e. they should allow the
concentrations to stay within the limits of the test kit (phosphates or
nitrates). Maybe the chemists can suggest the best indicator chemical that
won't undergo conversion after it is released. The test with the stuff
buried in the sand should show less concentration (or zero). 

I would like to see the experiment also done with eqivalent amount of plant
stick and plant tab for comparison. The entire thing could be over in 1 week
or may take longer. We just don't know. 


>   I would like to remind readers, that the criteria for my methods are
>normally based on cheap and easy, not maximum growth. Lastly, my methods
>come with no guarantee. 

Nicely put.
Neil Frank      Aquatic Gardeners Association         Raleigh, NC
      The Aquatic Gardener - journal of the AGA -  now in its seventh year!!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sochting Dosator

by "A M Moore" <andy/ascot.u-net.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998

<Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 19:17:43 EDT
<From: AquaServe-at-aol.com
<Subject: Continuous supplimentation of iron

Has anyone heard of or had any experience with a new contraption called a
"Dosator" by Sochting?  Accoring to an ad I have just read, it uses oxygen
releasing tablets that slowly release a liquid iron fertilizer into the
aquarium.  I am starting a new live planted aquarium and would like to make
it
more user friendly than some others I have had in the past.  I travel often
and am not able to replenish the iron in my tanks as often as I would like.
This unit would prove very useful if it works. Any information would be
greatly appreciated.  Thanks in advance.<


Duane Clark>>

Duane,

I live in the UK & I purchased one of these devices several years ago (5 yrs
?) - they are not new. I believe they originate from Germany. I have not
used mine for years. It basically consists of a small clear plastic vial
with a very heavy clay-type base to hold it down. For me, the device never
worked as it should have done mainly because of my water temperatures. As my
tank Discus/Planted tank runs around 83 degrees, the fertiliser was used up
too quickly, I could never get the balance just right.

Hope this helps

Andy Moore  -  andy-at-ascot.u-net.com

Planted Aquarium Tank Fanatic &
BBb Tuba Player in the Poulton-le-Fylde Brass Band:-

EDTA and Mineral nutrition

by eworobe/cc.UManitoba.CA
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998

Ferric compounds are only sparingly soluble in oxygenated water of 
moderate pH... on the order of, in some cases, 10-25M (thats a decimal place 
with 25 zeros behind it).

Iron in aquatic soils exists as Fe+2. If you dont believe me go check a 
pe-pH diagram in Stumm and Morgan or Schlesinger (Biogeochemistry).

Aquatic plant leaves most definitely are able to absorb chelated iron.

pKa refers to the point at which the protonated and unprotonated ACID are 
at the same concentration. Again, for EDTA, that is about 2.0, 2.7, 6.2 
and 10.0 for the four carboxylic acid groups. 

The ability of EDTA to chelate iron is relatively stable between pH 6 and 
10. At these pH values the HY-3 form predominates (as is evident from the 
pKa values).

If you want to actually read some research regarding EDTA go to your 
nearest research library, put in the 'Biological or Life Sciences' disc 
and type in EDTA and Nutrition. That should keep you in reading for months.

Research has shown for a variety of plants that Ca and Mg and K are 
required in the water column for normal growth. There are several reasons

1. The transport of Ca and Mg is difficult and in aquatic plants the 
'tarnspiration' stream is just too slow to effectively deliver these cations.

2. There is an external requirement for Ca. In aquatic plants this is 
critical since an external medium bathes the apoplasm (the area approx. 
between the outside of the celll membrane and inside the cell wall) of the 
leaf tissue.

3. K is used for balancing the charge inside and outside the plant and 
therefore must be available for transport into and out of the plant 
cells. If K is removed from solution, then Na replaces K on a molar basis 
(in at least one plant) though flowering and biomass production suffers. 


dave.


EDTA

by ac554/freenet.carleton.ca (David Whittaker)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999

Dave Whittaker wrote...

I spoke 10 days ago to a toxicologist with the Canadian Food Inspection
Agency. She said that NTA was a known animal carcinogen. She surmised
that at the concentrations presented in our planted tanks (EDTA<10 ppm)
both the EDTA and the NTA might cause problems. Apparently EDTA
affects blood-clotting capacity in mammals, although she thought
that the large size of the EDTA molecule would preclude it from
traversing fish gills. She also offered the opinion that EDDHA might
be a better option as chelant since less was required to sequester
a given amount of iron, and in contrast to EDTA and DTPA, EDDHA
was unlikely to harbour NTA as a contaminant. That's it.

Don't forget those water changes and keep an eye on your hemophilic
SAEs.


G. Kadar said with respect to the above...

>This chemical is used to treat  both acute and chronic heavy metal
>(lead) poisoning in humans.  It is also used in "chelation" therapy
>which is officially sanctioned in the US but not in Canada.  In
>addition, it is the substance that chelates calcium when dentists
>are performing root canal treatments.

>EDTA is also used as a stabilizing agent in certain injections and
>eye-drop preparations.Take a look sometime at the ingredients of
>such prepared food items, as Mayonnaise, some salad dressings
>(probably ranch dressing) and a myriad of other things, that may
>surprise you. The stuff is all over the place.

I just checked the label on the mayonnaise jar and it contains
calcium disodium EDTA. I'm surprised.

>Given it's extensive use in "invasive" therapies for human beings,
>perhaps the information written about in a previous post is referring
>to extremely high levels of EDTA.  The amount of EDTA introduced
>into an aquarium via PMDD is almost insignificant.

She understood the levels to be those found in home aquaria. I
figure that an aquarium might accumulate 5 to 25 ppm as EDTA
due to PMDD dosing.

>Furthermore, it's use would be banned in hydroponic gardening if
>it would be a major carcinogen.  There would go all the greenhouse
>grown vegetables.

Maybe. NTA is the carcinogen, EDTA is not. I took from the
conversation that the problems that EDTA might cause would be
associated with biological processes.

>EDTA passes through the gill membranes of fish.  It also passes
>through the membranes of the kidney and is thus excreted in the urine.

She didn't know, but she thought that it probably wouldn't.

>Perhaps there was some confusion as to EDTA and NTA.
>Who was this 'unnamed' toxicologist?

No confusion. I'll send you her name. Not every civil servant who
offers a free opinion wants their name published online.

>Now please, I really hate having to dust off my old textbooks.

Since you're the one with the textbooks, by all means dust them off.
I was looking for information. In the discussion three weeks ago, 
Dave Huebert's was the only opinion offered.

And since I consume a lot of mayonnaise, your point is well taken.

- --
Dave Whittaker
ac554@FreeNet.Carleton.ca


Any Tropica Master Grow experiences??

by krandall/world.std.com
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999

>I've already searched the archives and read all that came up on this
>fertilizer. Are there people out there that would share their experiences as
>to dosing and cautions and results using the Tropica Master Grow in their
>plant/fish aquariums? I have ordered a 250ML bottle to try, after not
>getting good results from the other "popular" supplements 

I switched to TMG several years ago, after using Dupla products for years.
While I was never dissatisfied with Dupla, I like the TMG even better.  For
my water it seems to grow plants a little better, and being lazy, I like
doind weekly instead of daily.  

The interesting thing is that even though I believe Dupla is lower in K
than Mastergrow, there must have been something else lower in the Dupla
product that limited my growth, because now, even with the Mastergrow, I
need to add K from time to time.  When discussing this with Claus
Christensen, he pointed out the same thing that we've talked about several
times here.  When a manufacturer designs a fertilizer, they try to work out
their best guess as to what will work best for the majority of people's tap
water.  There will always be the need to adjust slightly in high growth
tanks.  And just because one product works best for me, doesn't mean it
will work best for you.  It will depend on what minerals are available in
your tap water and through other sources. (fish food, substrate, etc.)

Karen Randall
Aquatic Gardeners Association


RE: Tropica Master Grow - OOOPS!

by "James Purchase" <jpurch/interlog.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999

In a posting yesterday concerning Tropica Master Grow, I made the following
comment:

> Keep in mind as well that plants need a balance of all of the essential
> nutrients. If even one of them is in short supply, growth won't
> be optimal.
> Tropical Matergrow, indeed no commercial fertilizer aimed at aquarium use,
> contains ALL of the essential elements needed by plants. Some are designed
> to come from other sources

What I _should_ have said (and thought I did, until I re-read the message
this morning), is that NO commercial fertilizer aimed at aquarium plants
contains all of the essential elements necessary for plant growth, not even
Mastergrow. This is not a flaw in the formulations, it is due to the fact
that certain nutrients are added to a typical aquarium via fish food and
regular water changes. As Karen has pointed out in an answering post to the
original query, certain tanks, especially those with high levels of growth,
are going to need supplementation with certain nutrients.

On a related note, and perhaps more to the point of the original query, I
re-discovered some infomation in an old copy of Today's Aquarium (4/88) by
Dr. Gerd Kassebeer. In an article on Iron in the Aquarium, he discusses the
use of Iron supplements, noting that fulvic acids (from mulm) help keep Iron
in bio-available form. He also notes that excessive levels of Iron
supplements can lead to precipitation of not only the Iron, but also of
other micronutrients - notably Phosphate (precipitated out as iron or
aluminium phosphate). Precipitating Iron also, acording to Dr. Kassebeer,
carries with it other heavy metals, especially manganese, copper, nickel and
cobalt. This can result in deficiencies of other micronutrients.

Ergo, too much Flourish Iron (or any other Iron supplement) can be just as
bad as too little. Back to that "balance" thingy. Kassebeer makes a very
good case for the need to ensure that you take care to dose with a complete
trace element supplement.

Kassebeer also discusses Iron deficiency symptoms (young leaves turn
yellow-green with green veins). Not every case of these symptoms is related
to a deficiency of Iron - high Phosphate or Hydrogen Carbonate concentration
can also cause the same symptoms. That is one reason I asked the original
poster to provide more information about his tank condition and water
parameters.

James Purchase
Toronto


NTA update

by "romano" <romano/pathway1.pathcom.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999

Through Plant Products I learned that Monsanto in Houston, Texas
manufactures the NTA that's in the iron chelate mix. I called them and they
tranferred my call to their sister company called Solutia in Alvin, Texas. A
very pleasant lady named Jennifer Young faxed to me a 10 page Toxicology
Report on NTA. The most pertinent section is on page 7, sec.2.2.

"The acute toxicity of NTA to aquatic life has been extensively studied. It
has been concluded that NTA would not adversely affect freshwater and marine
organisms... In addition, studies have shown that NTA would not adversely
affect fish or amphibian species at chronic exposure levels of 10mg/L or
less."

NTA is in the iron chelate mix, at 0.5-1.5% or 1100 mg./kg. This is 110
times more than the safe limit of 10 mg/L, but by the time it is diluted
into the PMDD and then dosed by dropfuls into an aquarium it is probably
(I'll ask others to do the math) not a problem.


NTA update

by "romano" <romano/pathway1.pathcom.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999

Through Plant Products I learned that Monsanto in Houston, Texas
manufactures the NTA that's in the iron chelate mix. I called them and they
tranferred my call to their sister company called Solutia in Alvin, Texas. A
very pleasant lady named Jennifer Young faxed to me a 10 page Toxicology
Report on NTA. The most pertinent section is on page 7, sec.2.2.

"The acute toxicity of NTA to aquatic life has been extensively studied. It
has been concluded that NTA would not adversely affect freshwater and marine
organisms... In addition, studies have shown that NTA would not adversely
affect fish or amphibian species at chronic exposure levels of 10mg/L or
less."

NTA is in the iron chelate mix, at 0.5-1.5% or 1100 mg./kg. This is 110
times more than the safe limit of 10 mg/L, but by the time it is diluted
into the PMDD and then dosed by dropfuls into an aquarium it is probably
(I'll ask others to do the math) not a problem.


Micronutrients

by "Dixon, Steven T. (BEn)" <stdixon/ben.bechtel.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000

I wanted to make an early report on micronutrients and see what your views
might be.  We had a wonderful visit with Claus Christensen here in San
Francisco a week or so ago.  Claus' consistent observation whether it was
the research planted tanks at the Monterey Bay Aquarium, my tanks, Dave's
tank, etc. was that the tanks he saw needed more micronutrients.  In my
case, Claus pointed to paleish new growth of Sagitaria subdulata and Crinum
calistramatum as indicators of the micronutrient deficiency.

Now it may surprise some of you to learn that many of us here in the San
Francisco Bay Area are quite conservative about nutrients in general, and
nutrients in the water column, in particular.  I was trained by Karen who
always taught us to use 'just enough' and not more, and to use our eyes to
observe our tanks.  :-)

With this in mind I have always dosed Tropica Master Grow conservatively.  I
use about 30 ml per week in my 125 gal. tank.  Water changes are around 40%
per week or 10 days with very soft water, very pure Sierra water.  Our water
has been so soft this winter with the extra rains, that some aquarists have
reported pH crashes.  KH has tested under 0.5 degrees in at least one tank I
have been helping with.

With 30 ml a week and sufficient other nutrients I have had good growth and
healthy vibrant plants.  However, I have routinely observed that fast
growing runner plants, E. tenellus is perhaps the best example, and a few
others will come in a little paleish looking and then green up in a month or
so.  I simply thought this was typical, or even, 'optimum'.  :-O

During Claus' visit he mentioned that in his soft water experimental tanks
in Denmark he was using much more TMG than the recommended dosage.  He sort
of whispered that he was using maybe even 3 times as much as the recommended
amount, but that he could not put such a statement on the label.  He also
confirmed that TMG  was designed for use in very soft pure water (as well as
for harder water, richer nutrient conditions).  I asked Claus if increasing
the TMG dosage would result in more algae in my tank and he said flatly that
it wouldn't.  

So with a bit of hesitation, 10 days ago I doubled my TMG dosage to 60 ml
per week.  I have one of these Eheim Liquidosers so I programmed it to add 2
ml.  4 times a day starting just before the lights come on and ending a few
hours before they go off in the evening.  So these nutrients hit the tank
just as the light cycle fires up and the plants need them, and they continue
to be available throughout the day.  Better conditions for the algae to grow
in as well, right Roger?  That's my view anyway.  With a dose every couple
of hours at least the TMG nutrients are not limiting, I would have thought.

The result:  Plants are growing very well and coming in much greener.  To
use one of my favorite scientific terms, the tank has even more 'sparkle'
than before. The growth is not faster, just richer.  And to my amazement,
there is even less algae on the glass (the plants have always had very
little visible algae on the leaves).  In fact, almost no visible green algae
on the glass after 10 days.  What on earth could the explanation be?  I'm
guessing Roger would say toxicity of one or other nutrient, if he agrees the
micronutrients are not limited.  But I wonder.  Why doesn't the usual modest
compliment of green algae grow on the glass under these conditions?

Any ideas?

Steve Dixon in San Francisco


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This page was last updated 30 July 2000