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Re:Rotala macandra

by krombhol-at-felix.teclink.net (Paul Krombholz)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997

Karl wrote:
....I'm looking for _tank-raised_ Rotala macranda.  R. macranda is readily
available through the usual channels, but it isn't tank raised.  I'd like
to leap past that meltdown stage.........

I am afraid that tank-raised R. macandra will also have the same melt down
problems.  R. macandra is a plant that tends to go downhill rapidly after
being pulled up or cut.  The cuttings just do not keep well and are hard to
establish.  The best thing to do is to have a well-lit location in an
established aquarium all set up to receive your R. macandra plants when
they arrive. CO2 additions along with some chelated iron in the water also
help the cuttings get established.

I have also seen the symptoms of calcium deficiency show up in R. macandra,
as well as R. wallichii, when the other plants in the same tank (crypts and
swords) were growing normally. I actually lost all my R. macandra to
calcium deficiency, but I got the R. wallichii, which was showing the same
symptoms as the macandra, to recover by adding about a half teaspoon of
lime to the aquarium.

The R. wallichii was growing normally, but starting to cover a lot of the
tank and shade out some other plants.  When I cut it back, I got severe
calcium deficiency symptoms immediately in the new growth (distorted small
leaves followed by death of the growing point).  This occurred when the new
growth was only a few millimeters long.  Apparently the well-established
plants were able to extract enough calcium from the water and soil, but
cutting them back down to 2 or 3 inch stumps also cut back on their ability
to extract Ca.  I got almost no growth for weeks, and, although the
recovery started within a few days of adding the calcium, the plants were
slow to get back to their normal rate of growth.  It may well be that the
damage caused by calcium deficiency reduces the ability of the plant to
take up calcium.  Now that I think of it, I had similar symptoms, although
not as severe, when I first established the wallichii in the aquarium.  It
would grow about a half an inch, and then the growing point would quit.
Eventually a side shoot would come up and get a little bit taller than the
previous one. That also was calcium deficiency, by golly, but I didn't know
it, because wallichii was a new plant for me, and I thought that maybe that
was its normal manner of growth.  At that time, also, the other plants were
doing fine.

I havn't got any macandra now, but if I ever get some again, I will make
sure that the plants I get are immediately put in a well-lit location and
add CO2 and chelated iron and make sure that there is calcium available.  I
think that both macandra and wallichii need higher levels of calcium than
many other aquarium plants, even though the books say they prefer soft,
acid water.

Several contributors to the APD have reported that macandra does well in a
peat-soil mixture,

Paul Krombholz                  Tougaloo College, Tougaloo, MS  39174
In Jackson, Mississippi with sunny, pleasant spring weather.   

Red Plant light requirements.

by krandall-at-world.std.com
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997

Neil wrote:

>Karen, we compared my low light macrandra to you high light one (Karen uses
>5 bulbs compared to my 2). They had similar color, didn't they?

Yes they did.  The big difference is that I couldn't grow R. macrandra at
all in my harder water without CO2 and stronger light.  With CO2, strong
light and planted in soil (also necessary with my water) it grows like
crazy.  It seems I can have either all or nothing... I'll live with having
to prune regularly, thank you!<g>  OTOH, I have _not tried it with soil,
CO2 and lower light, since I don't have a tank set up like that.  Hmmm.

Karen Randall
Aquatic Gardeners Association

R. macrandra light levels

by krandall/world.std.com
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998

Steve Rader wrote:

>Fwiw, I recently had dark red R. macrandra crap out in 6-8 weeks
>in a newly setup 10 gal (office tank) with 4.5w/gal (3 * 15 watt):
>it's the only thing that hasn't grown.  Generic Rotala (R. indica,
>I think), Hygro, Jungle Val, two sp. Anubius, Crypt wendtii, narrow
>chain sword and some Melon-sword-like sword are all doing nicely.
>(Although the Val grows way too fast!) 
>
>Did my R. macrandra have *too* much light?  Other ideas?

No, if you didn't burn your other plants, I'm sure your R. macrandra didn't
get "too much" light per se.  OTOH, R. macrandra is a _VERY_ fast growing
plant under high light conditions, so needs more nutrition when you force
its growth with strong light.  I suspect that it would be the first of the
plants you mentioned to show a nutrient deficiency.  

There is really no reason for light levels that high.  I don't know of any
plants that really benefit from more than 3w/g.  It just cost more money to
run, and means you have to find a way to disipate more heat.  Most of the
plants you have chosen will quickly outgrow a 10G tank even with 3w/g if
they are receiving adequate nutrition as well.  As with everything else in
aquatic gardening, more is not necessarily better.


Karen Randall
Aquatic Gardeners Association

Re: Light and R. macrandra

by Luca Specchio <luckyluca/mclink.it>

>Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 10:01:01 -0500
>From: steve rader <rader-at-teak.wiscnet.net>
>Subject: Re: Light and R. macrandra

>Fwiw, I recently had dark red R. macrandra crap out in 6-8 weeks
>in a newly setup 10 gal (office tank) with 4.5w/gal (3 * 15 watt):
>it's the only thing that hasn't grown.  Generic Rotala (R. indica,
>I think), Hygro, Jungle Val, two sp. Anubius, Crypt wendtii, narrow
>chain sword and some Melon-sword-like sword are all doing nicely.
>(Although the Val grows way too fast!) 
>
>Did my R. macrandra have *too* much light?  Other ideas?
My tanks have a huge amount of light too but Rotala Macrandra is growing
very well that I have to cut it every 10 days or so. But I had one little
tank where Rotala didn't grow very well and apparently withOUT any specific
reason, all what I noticed was that the plants were not able to make roots
and after some weeks they started starving and die.
As the setup of that little tank was identical to all the other tanks I've
had, the reason why it didn't grow must be found somewhere else. All the
differences between the tanks are in 2 things:
1) light: even if my tanks have almost the same amount of light, in the
case of that little tank I used only tri-phosphorus flurescent tubes. And I
know for sure that Rotala is one of the most difficult plant to adapt to
light, so I suggest you to go for a full spectrum fluorescent light. If you
want I can tell you the Philips and Osram and Sylvania lamps you should use
(in Italy GE is not very common, so I can't tell yoiu anything about that
brand).
2) Chloride content (Cl- ion): in that little tank chlorides were higher
than in my other tanks.

Of course I'm NOT stating that these 2 differences are the REAL cause why
Rotalda didn't grow. But this all what I can deduct from my diary and I
hope that can help you somehow.

Best Wishes,
Luca Specchio

Red Rotala lighting requirements

by Neil Frank <nfrank/mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998

>>I know that you have mentioned this before. I find it amazing.
>>Rotala macrandra requires a lot of (metal halide) light in my tanks.
>>What other conditions do you provide?
>
>This particular 70 gal tank (18"x48"x18") has a peat substrate (which is
>now over 5 years old); 80 watts flourescent (1 GrowLUX, 1 Triton) plus
>triton enhangers (the polished reflectors)...now using 2 tritons.... colors
>are MUCH nicer! I will report back if any change in Rotala; weekly trace
>elements + K; biweekly water changes (25%); minimal CO2 injected; DH has
>ranged from 2-8 from varying amounts of CaCO3(pH changes accordingly). A
>couple dozen small fish and correspondingly small amount of dry fish food
>daily.

I should make another point.

Rotala likes to grow up to the surface and then continues to grow with its
boyant leaves floating along the surface. The leaves get larger and
possibly redder the closer it gets to the light, and actually are at their
best when they are growing on the surface. Then they have their nicest
fluffy appeareance. This is the stuff that goes into the club auctions and
gets most of the oohs and ahhs! The compulsive replanter can also keep the
Rotala garden at its best by recyling this top material.

A factor that I mentioned but did not emphasize is the shape of this tank
(18 x 48 x 18). And that it has a relatively deep (2.5-3 inch) substrate.
If the water column was deeper, the same 80 watts might not be sufficient,
at least until the stems got tall enought and then the difference between
the lower leaves and upper ones would be more apparent. Another VERY
related point is that this tank is at or above eye level. It is on the top
level of a 3 tank stand. So, the viewer tends not to focus on the lower
growth.

- --Neil

Red Macranda

by "Dixon, Steven T. (Exchange)" <stdixon/ben.bechtel.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999

Karen wrote:  "You should see my R. macrandra.  It's so red people don't
believe that it's real.  I grow it under a combination of 5000K and
6500K T-8's, 3 w/g.  Steve Dixon has bright red macrandra too, and he
also uses fluorescents, though I don't remember what kind."
In one tank I use 6500K compact fluorescent bulbs. In another I use
6500K CFs together with a mix of Tritons and Penn Plax Ultra Tri-luks.
Steve

Getting the red out

by Thomas Barr <tcbiii/earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002

> Tom, at the risk of opening this thread again (and you know it's been
> running on the Sfbaaps list for years), I thought we found that red
> coloration was stimulated by stressing, limiting **either** N or P in
> the presense of an adaquate supply of K and the other nutrient.

Yep. 
> 
> In other words, running relatively high NO3 and strict limitation of P
> with the occasional PO4 "pulse" produced large, luscius red leaves in R.
> macrandra (I should note here that IME macrandra is sensitive to N and
> doesn't thrive in environments with more than about 10ppm or less than
> 3ppm).
> 
> Reversing the proportions had a similar effect: relatively high PO4
> (above 2.0ppm!) and less than 1ppm of NO3 forced just about everything
> else in my aquarium that could turn red to do so.

This method gives the best color I've seen. But some plants respond
negatively to low NO3.

 ***Or*** is it that respond negatively to low NH4?
The NO3/NH4 dynamic cannot be ignored if we seek to understand and use this.
If the tank has a high enough snail, fish, shrimp etc population it will
increase the NH4 perhaps even to the point where little or certainly less
NO3 is needed.



 In fact, the
> macrandra went blood-red, but of course the leaf size was stunted from
> lack of NO3.

I got great color at higher NO3(10ppm) and high PO4(1ppm). Could be the
harder water. We got the same lights, CO2, K+, test kits, etc. I also got
this in Marin. I recall it did not like the (too)low NO3 in the no fish
shrimp tank but did better out front with the higher fish load. Kinda wonder
how much of the NH4 vs NO3 is responsible. Well, that's the next question
now that we have somewhat of a handle on color:)
 
> Michael Rubin in San Francisco, where it looks like a good day for a
> middle-aged run ~

And hopefully not a middle aged pace:) A beach run with a soccer ball sounds
like order of the day for myself.
Regards,
Tom Barr

Rotala macrandra

by Cavan <millsman7/yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000

Bob, 

in my experience, this plant does NOT require soft
water.  Mine actually does better in water that's
about 7GH.  I think the extra calcium present helps
it.  If I'm at all wrong about this, someone please
let me know.  

I have had problems with it suffering after trims. 
I've just been pushing down the stems as they grow
(the lower ones become unavoidably shaded after awhile
and die off).  One of these days I'll have the nerve
to just give it a regular trim.  I wonder if keeping
it in water that is softer would somehow alleviate
that problem.  

One other question for everyone.  Knowing that it
prefers very low nitrates, and low nitrates give it
better color, why does it seem that this is limited to
what's in the water column?  Adding kno3 to the water
results in paler color, but giving it Jobes spikes
does not.  Has anyone else noticed this?  

Later, Cavan    in Pittsburgh

Rotala Magenta

by Zchryk/aol.com
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000

    I think that Rotala 'Magenta' is actually Rotala Macrandra var. 'Narrow 
Leaf'.  I have been keeping this plant- the store I bought it from called it 
'Magenta'.  It gets deep red in my tank.  I've never had the regular 
Macrandra, but from the pictures I've seen, it does look more beautiful than 
the one I have- but it's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison to me, 
because they look to be so different.  If you are looking for a small-leaved 
red stem plant it's a striking one- although I've found it to be one of the 
most demanding plants I've tried.

    Zach K

Rotalla wallichii Survey Participate!!!!

by krombhol/teclink.net (Paul Krombholz)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001

I have had similar experiences to those reported by Cavan with Rotala
wallichii, and I have a hypothesis that when it goes down hill, the problem
may be too many nutrients, rather than too few.  My hypothesis is that
wallichii is a high-light, low nutrient plant, and that some other members
of the genus, Rotala are, too, such as macandra and rotundifolia (=indica).
About a year ago, someone on this list reported a problem with indica that
he called, aptly, "little-leaf" condition.  The leaves get smaller and
smaller, until they were hardly visible.  Then the stem tip died.  It
looked like it might be calcium or boron deficiency, but it persisted when
those two nutrients were added.  I have seen the same thing in indica when
it was in a heavily fertilized tank.  When I moved it to a new tank, where
I had a good supply of calcium (from ground limestone), along with excess
potassium, magnesium, and sulfate, along with a good supply of
micronutrients, but very restricted in nitrogen and phosphorus, the plant
grew very well, with nice pink leaves.  I have been ignoring the tank for
many months, and the indica is still looking pretty good, whereas some
other species---Hemianthus umbrosum, Didiplis diandra, and Cardamine
lytra---have just about died out completely. I have some Bacopa monnieri in
there that is still alive, but has lost a lot of leaves.  The other plants
with the indica that have held their own in spite of the neglect (no CO2 or
nutrients for months---This is a tank without fish---) are Heteranthera
zosterifolia, and Cryptocoryne walkeri.

So, it looks like indica is a plant that can hold its own under crowded,
low nutrient conditions, as long as it gets light.  I don't know of any
scientific support for the notion that some species can be hurt by other
than very low concentrations of N and P, and that is why I don't feel
highly confident in the hypothesis. It goes against a large body of
literature in plant nutrition.   However, I would like to try to test this
hypothesis some more, if I have the time and some tank space. If it isn't
actually high N & P causing the damage, then it may by some kind of
associated conditions in a heavily fertilized tank.

Indica is a plant that is much less delicate than wallichii or macandra.
However, it seems to show similar symptoms.  When I have had macandra and
wallichii doing well, they were in a crowded tanks where I would see a
definite increase in growth in all plants if I add a small piece of dried
liver for fertilization.

 I have a small amount of wallichii, that has been existing as a floating
plant for about 8 months.  I have just planted it, and will watch it
carefully.  One interesting thing I saw with wallichii was that I once had
a very beautiful, healthy-looking stand of it that was overspreading my
tank and shading out other plants.  When I trimmed it back, I left in the
older stems, and they never recovered.  They failed to regenerate healthy
growth, and the new growth was short, with tiny leaves, looked calcium
deficient, and it died at the growing tips.  Adding calcium and boron, did
not help.  I have a test kit that tested around 80 ppm of calcium in the
water.  Those stems finally died completely. I wonder if these results
indicate that wallichii is better at extracting at least some nutrients
from the water column than it is with its roots---maybe calcium.

A very early notion in aquatic plant nutrition was that the roots of
aquatic plants served only to anchor the plant and played no role in
nutrient uptake.  This was an assuption, and it got disproved by the
experiments of a researcher named, Pond, in the early 1900's.  He showed
that floating plants did much more poorly than rooted plants.  I havn't
kept up on the literature, but I am pretty sure that both roots and shoots
are shown to be able to extract nutrients.  I do not know if there is any
concensus about certain nutrients being preferentially absorbed by roots or
shoots.  I have found that fertilizing the water column works for my
plants, and I have not counted on my substrate providing anything except
iron.


The wallichii I have now is some that I obtained at the Aquatic Gardeners
convention, last November.  I let the plants sit in their bag for almost a
week after I got back from the convention, then bleached the three-quarters
rotted plants in 5% liquid bleach for four minutes (a rather strong
treatment for such a delicate plant, but guananteed to kill hair algae). I
floated the few stem segments still showihg signs of life in a guppy tank.
Believe it or not, they recovered and sent out small plants with short
roots.  This experience makes me think that if your wallichii is about to
kick the bucket, cut the stems and float them.  They may recover!  Mine
have been floating in my guppy tank until about a week ago, when I planted
them in a newly set-up aquarium.  In the guppy tank the new growth was, in
some cases, several inches long, but didn't look healthy probably because
the plants were not rooted.  I think I want to establish at least some of
the wallichii under emersed conditions on the windowsill, so that I wont
lose it all, experimenting on it.

Paul Krombholz, in  central Mississippi, where we got less than an inch
from Allison.

wallichii survery

by Lazarus Miskowski <lazmiskowski/yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001

>>I would like to hear from everyone growing this
plant
what your tank conditions are.  How hard?  Macros?
Rate of growth, etc.  I hope that by doing this, we
might reach a concensus about how to care for this
plant.<<

I have had good success with wallichii.  When I used
to trade in plants at the LFS I had a large stand and
could take in 20-25 tall stems a week.  Tank
conditions at that time were DIY co2, 200w CF, ~7d GH
(maybe less, I was using 50% RO at the time which
would have made it more like 4dH) in a 75gal tank.  I
am still growing it, but now with pressurized co2 and
7dH GH.

Having said that, I haven't yet mastered growing
conditions for the plant.  I believe Frode Roe on his
website says that when at peak health, the tips are
pink.  In my experience, peak health is red.  Poor
health is white.  And pink is a state inbetween.  I
remember having some trouble with this plant, and
reading somewhere on APD that someone had noticed
calcium deficiency as a problem with this plant.  I
had been derelict with water changes at the time,
checked my KH and GH.  KH was less than one, and GH
was about 3.  Both those figures are significantly
reduced from the input water.  If my memory serves me
correctly, when I increased GH and KH (through water
changes) it did much better.  So watch your KH and
calcium.

As far as rate of growth in my tank, the wallichii can
grow from bottom to top (18in or so) in probably
1.5wk.  And along the way, it will grow offshoots. 
When it reaches the surface, it will bend over, and
several shoots will form there and grow straight up.

And as far as floating wallichii when it is in poor
shape, I think that holds true for any plant.  If it
looks like its going to die, float it.

One more point--the wallichii in my higher lighted
tank grows much more red than the wallichii in my
55gal NO fluoro tank.  So having enough light is
definitely a prerequisite.

Arthur
http://www.geocities.com/anwestover

re: Rotala wallichii

by Jcwheel76/aol.com
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001

Hey Cavan, and all,

I grow R. wallichii in a 20 long with a 55w pc strip (6700k) and a 20w NO flourescent (GE sunshine), DIY CO2, and Flourite/peat substrate. My tap water is *very* soft at 1Gh/Kh and Ph of 6.8-6.9 which falls to about 6.4-6.5 with CO2. I have to add CaCO3 and epsom salts regularly or deficiency quickily ensues! I usually shoot for 3-4 Gh/Kh.

N is usually 10-20 mg/liter. K is added regularly through the week. Phosphates depend....I sometime will use a phosphate resin because my tap is very high. I'm not sure how much has precipitated in my substrate, but I don't see any deficiency. I only add calcium, magnesium, and potassium to the water column.

R. wallichii grows faster than any of my plants, except for maybe H. polysperma. I bought mine from Aquarium Center in Maryland. They were magnificent to begin with and, as with most delicate plants, usually the key to success is starting with good stock.

If it matters, it is housed with glossostigma, micranthemum, H. polysperma, and Sagitarria subulata. Also, about 7 Celebes rainbows and 15 Caridinia japonica......and pond snails (hehe) 

Hope this helps you on your way,
John Wheeler

P.S....anyone in the Delaware area is more than welcome to come cuttings. Contact me off list.

wallichii survey/ GH

by Cavan <millsman7/yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001

Thank you to all that have participated in my survey.

(No Title)

by

Like Paul said, Rotalas seem to like low nutrient
levels.  I had some macrandra that grew very quickly
and very red with an almost deficient nitrate level. 
When I allowed nitrate to climb too high (no water
change for awhile - my tank may not need that much),
it faded and died.  GH did not seem to have any effect
on growth.    

Strangely, it would grow tiny stunted leaves for a few
days after trimming before normal sized leaves would
appear again.  I ended up just pushing the plant down
a little further into the substrate instead of
trimming it.  I could grow it, but not do a very good
job of reproducing the plant.     

My rotundifoilia does occasionally grow some tiny
leaves, but thrives in my low nutrient conditions.  It
always responds well to trimming and comes back
strongly time and again.  Any stems showing puny
leaves recover on their own (this is rare though).    

Wallichii is a different story.  When I first got the
stuff, it did well.  It grew quickly and looked
plumish and bright reddish pink.  Not ratty.  I'm not
sure if its eventual failure had more to do with a bad
reaction to trimming or too long a time being in water
that was too hard.  I again refer to the Baensch Atlas
statement that the plant grows well for a while in
harder water before degenerating.       

Internode distance increased and new shoots would grow
up above a stem tip and inch or so before dying
themselves.  Calcium and boron were in good supply,
and nutrient levels were relatively low (though I do
need better test kits to be more certain of my water
conditions).

So, I think we've decided that wallichii needs quite
low nutrient levels to do well.  But, what of GH? 
Based on my own experience and that of Tom Barr and
others, many so called soft water plants do just fine
in harder water (such as macrandra).  It seems that
wallichii may be an exception.  Thoughts?

On a side note, why is it that so many sources of
information on aquatic plants (like the Baensch
Atlases) say that so many plants native to soft water
cannot adapt to harder water?  How did this myth take
hold?  What other plants really do adhere to this
belief that is largely untrue?  

Thanks, Cavan  


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Rotala macrandra (fwd)

by Cynthia Powers <cyn/metronet.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 17:28:52 -0400
From: Karen Randall <krandall@world.std.com>
To: Aquatic Plants Digest <Aquatic-Plants-Owner@actwin.com>
Subject: Rotala macrandra

> How long have you  grown Macrandra successfully?

A long time... maybe 10 years?

> Before you were successful, were you unsuccessful (and what changed that)?

I learned how to grow plants.<g>  Seriously, when I met someone with a
German aquarium background who taught me about substrates, lighting and
supplemental CO2.

What are your tank conditions:

Lighting - I've grown it under MH's, NO flourescents, energy efficient
T-8's, and compact fluorescents.  The amount of light has varied from just
over 2 w/g to a little over 3 w/g.  I mostly use bulbs with a color
temperature between 5000-6500K, but that's personal preference... I've also
used 2700K bulbs a couple of times when that was what was around.

Temp - 72F-82F, indoors and variable outdoors in my tub pond. Interestingly,
it flowered there late in the fall, when the temperatures were low, and the
days were short.  It was cold enough that I put it in a bucket and carried
it in every night to avoid frost until it flowered and I could get my HAP
points for it.

pH - 6.5-7.5

KH - 3-6 dkh
Ca (ppm)- never measured
Mg (ppm)-   "
Cl (ppm)-     "

Fe (ppm)- I'm leery of Fe measurements.  I think we're often not talking in
the same language.  In the days when I tested for iron much, using the Dupla
Fe test kit, I needed to see SOME color to keep the plant happy.  The lowest
comparator in the kit is .05 mg/L  so perhaps it could have been as low as
.025?

additives/frequency (PMDD, KNO3, CaCl, CaSO4, etc...)?  I add Tropica
Mastergrow and KNO3 to the tanks twice a week, and change about 1/3 of the
water (which adds a small amount of PO4) every couple of weeks.

Substrate/additives/cables...  Most tanks have been set up with quartz
gravel and laterite. (Dupla laterite in the early days, the Karl Schoeler's
Substrate Gold)  I had one tank that had a soil substrate.  There were a
number of different problems with the tank, but the R. macrandra grew fine.
I have one tank with Seachem Flourish, and that does fine too.

Anything else you can think of... In the early days, when I way concerned
about keeping nutrient levels in the water column as low as possible, I
found that R. macrandra did best for me potted in soil.  I hust hid the pots
in the back of the tank.  The plants would become pot bound fairly quickly,
(about 3 months) and I'd need to cut the stems off at ground level, knock
the pots out, replace the soil and gravel and replant the stems.  This
worked quite nicely.  After Steve and Tom convinced me to be braver, I have
had no trouble growing it without soil.  I suspect it would grow fine
planted in sterile quartz gravel as long as nutrient levels in the water
column were kept up.

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