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Apistogramma hongsloi

Contents:

  1. A.hongsloi
    by Mike Jacobs <mfjacobs/geocities.com> (Tue, 28 Oct 1997)
  2. A.hongsloi
    by "Darren J. Hanson" <djhanson/calweb.com> (Fri, 24 Oct 1997)
  3. Cross Breeding In Apistos
    by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com> (Fri, 08 May 1998)
  4. A.hongsloi
    by David Sanchez <barbax2/yahoo.com> (Wed, 10 Mar 1999)
  5. A.hongsloi
    by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com> (Wed, 10 Mar 1999)
  6. re hongsloi
    by "Vern Wensley" <vernwen/home.com> (Wed, 10 Mar 1999)
  7. Rotpunkt
    by Jota Melgar <jsmelgar/compuserve.com> (Wed, 14 Jul 1999)
  8. Rotpunkt
    by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com> (Wed, 14 Jul 1999)
  9. Wild Hongsloi
    by Frauley/Elson <fraulels/minet.ca> (Thu, 17 Feb 2000)
  10. Wild Hongsloi
    by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com> (Thu, 17 Feb 2000)
  11. A. hongsloi (Alto Carinagua)
    by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com> (Sun, 26 Mar 2000)
  12. A. hongsloi (Alto Carinagua)
    by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com> (Sat, 25 Mar 2000)


Male

video still by Erik Olson


wild fish (female?)

Photo by Tim Ellis


female


male

Photos by Ken Laidlaw

A.hongsloi

by Mike Jacobs <mfjacobs/geocities.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

Folks........My experience with A. Hongsloi was the same as Kaycy's.  As
a matter of fact I got them also from Dave Soares.  To shorten the
story, I didn't know the first time the pair spawned till I was
siphoning the tank and saw the tiny free-swimming fry.  She then
proceeded to eat all but one fry......then she died.  after a long wait
the young fry was a female and then proceeded to spawn with her
dad.....small spawn 13 - 14 made it! I have given 5-6 away and have 8-9
left.  I agree with the color......mostly yellow - no red.  When Dave
came back from Germany this last time he brought back a pair of A.
hongsloi that were "hand picked" by a Willie &^^%....(forgot his last
name)....he said they were better than any of the AQUALOG pic's. 
Several weeks after getting home they had lost all of the coloring. 
Food??????????  Dave then talked with Willie and willie said
.....cyclops!!!!!!!  Your call...........I never heard of cyclops
producing that kind of color.....but then I haven't heard of a bunch of
things!!

Have a good day all.........I'm finally back on line after the school
just re-wired for two weeks.....but boy am I flying....almost a true
56.6.....are you jealouse? eh eh eh eh eh!

Mike

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A.hongsloi

by "Darren J. Hanson" <djhanson/calweb.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

>Does anyone on the list have/ever had A.honsloi.  just 
>interested after seeing the superb specimens in the Aqualog 
>book.

I purchased a pair of A. hongsloi from David Soares a couple years back and
they did just fine for a year and a half and continuously spawned for me. I
fed them mainly newly hatched baby brine and occasionally fed them finely
ground flakes. They were great with their eggs and fry. I had them housed in
a 10 gallon tank with a shallow layer of fine sand, a ceramic flower pot,
and a sponge filter. I put the pot in the back of the tank with the filter
towards the front. I only had one female and one male. After a bad time in
my life and then moving I lost the breeder pair and I had already sold all
the fry when they were large enough. Now, when I have spawns, I keep at
least 10 fry back just in case of such demises. I don't know what they look
like in the Aqualog but mine had a lot of yellow but no red stripe along the
bottom of the bottom. Very gorgeous fish in their own right. I don't know if
David still has these or not.

Just info. Don't know if this helps you any.

Kaycy

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Cross Breeding In Apistos

by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com>
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

I agree with the A. hongsloi ID.  It sounds like the blue-form that used to be called
Rotstrich (Red-streak), a beautiful fish.  It comes from around Puerto Ayacucho,
Venezuela just above (south) the mouth of the Rio Meta.  Most A. hongsloi do come from
the Colombian side of the Orinoco, but Venezuela has some, too.

I'm sorry your honest question got so many angry replies.  You did the right thing in
asking.  If you hadn't ...  Like our teachers always said, "There are no stupid
questions".

Mike

Tim Ellis wrote:

> Steve,
>
> I can't tell you much as I'm a novice to this hobby. The most I could find out is
> that the collector lives in Venezuela,
> the fish were collected from the Laguna Provincial in Puerto Ayacucho, Venezuela.
> The thought that the fish are in the
> Hongsloi genus comes from the locale of collection, and the bright yellow coloration
> the male has on his head back past the
> gill plate. The male has a very large dorsal that extends almost to the end of the
> tail, the anal fins are the same length,
> the pectoral fins are sky blue, there is also a red caudal spot and some red under
> the abdomen by the anal fins. They also
> have very small, pointed mouths.The female was a dull grey until she went into brood
> colors(she has not lost them yet).
> The female is a very bright yellow with ablack checkerboard pattern on the sides.
> These fish have turned out to be very
> prolific spawners as well as showing admirable parental care. I have been following
> the lfs formula for water and temp.
> The water is 1 dgh, 1dkh, 6.0-6.5 ph, 82 degrees Fah., heavily planted tank with
> lots of african root wood.(this wood is very
> dense and decomposes really slow). The tank mates include a pair of A. Iniridae and
> four Otto cats(used to have A. Macmasteri,
> but thats another thread). The tank they are living in, a 70 gal show, was going to
> be my community tank, but has turned out
> to be the largest nursery I've seen yet. I get a lot of ribbing for this. I was told
> the Whittley's would do best in a
> 20 gal. breeder by themselves. If they do any better than now I am in trouble. You
> know how the wives get about new tanks!
> I don't have access to the proper photography tools to get a decent picture yet,
> still looking. Please excuse the terminology,
> I hope I have helped. I would love to trade for some Apistogramma Opal Borreli's or
> Trifasciata, or even some Pelvicachromis
> Taeniatus or Humilis. Sounds like big hopes to me, but you never know.
>
> Tim
>
> Steven J. Waldron wrote:
>
> > Tim wrote:
> > >Whittley(undescribed at this point, collectors name) is from the Hongsloi genus
> > >that it is possible for it to cross breed with a Macmasteri.
> >
> > Sorry, I haven't been following this thread but curious to know more about
> > this "Whittley hongsloi"?
> > - Steve
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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A.hongsloi

by David Sanchez <barbax2/yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999
To: apisto/admin.listbox.com


Hi Ken.

I just started breeding A.hongsloi this past year I have color forms I
and II. I have found them to spawn quite readily in water with a Ph of
4.8 a GH of less then 1 with about 30 microsiemens and KH 0. My hatch
rates have been superb and all my females have tended their young for
at least a month in this water. You can of course see what the outer
limits of their tolerance is as far water parameters but this is what
has worked for me, and quite succesfuly I might add.

I might also add that the female is rather tolerant of her mate after
spawning and in an aquarium with enough space he can easily be
observed patroling his vast territory from any intruders. Good luck Ken.



==

David Sanchez
Casselberry, FL
http://www.mindspring.com/~barbax
barbax2@yahoo.com
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




A.hongsloi

by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999
To: apisto/admin.listbox.com


--------------567CB56AC436B2EF98B90D7A
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Ken,

Dr. Staeck collected this fish in streams outside of Puerto Ayachuco, Venezuela.
There he measured the following conditions:

Date 31 July 1989                              Time: 11:00 a.m.
Air temperature: 32º C (89.5ºF)                Water temperature: 25.5ºC (78ºF)
Conductivity: 10 µS/cm                         Total & Carbonate Hardness <1º
pH 5.5

This fish can be spawned in moderately soft water (~6ºdGH+dKH) with dKH <3º with
a pH about 6. It can be maintained in harder, slightly alkaline water, but with
no viable eggs. Hope this helps.



Ken Laidlaw wrote:

> Hi,
> Can anyone offer any tips on the water conditions for
> breeding A.hongsloi?
> Thanks, Ken.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@majordomo.pobox.com.
> For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
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--------------567CB56AC436B2EF98B90D7A
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Ken,
<p>Dr. Staeck collected this fish in streams outside of Puerto Ayachuco,
Venezuela. There he measured the following conditions:
<p><tt>Date 31 July 1989&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Time: 11:00 a.m.</tt>
<br><tt>Air temperature: 32&ordm; C (89.5&ordm;F)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Water temperature: 25.5&ordm;C (78&ordm;F)</tt>
<br><tt>Conductivity: 10 &micro;S/cm&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Total &amp; Carbonate Hardness &lt;1&ordm;</tt>
<br><tt>pH 5.5</tt><tt></tt>
<p>This fish can be spawned in moderately soft water (~6&ordm;dGH+dKH)
with dKH &lt;3&ordm; with a pH about 6. It can be maintained in harder,
slightly alkaline water, but with&nbsp; no viable eggs. Hope this helps.
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;
<p>Ken Laidlaw wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Hi,
<br>Can anyone offer any tips on the water conditions for
<br>breeding A.hongsloi?
<br>Thanks, Ken.
<p>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!</blockquote>
</html>

--------------567CB56AC436B2EF98B90D7A--




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re hongsloi

by "Vern Wensley" <vernwen/home.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999
To: "apisto - digest" <apisto/listbox.com>

I spawned mine in ph.5.4 and 10ppm. hardness.I think they would spawn in a
higher ph.than this as they were one of the easyer apistos I have
spawned.Has anyone noticed the growth rate for these fish?Mine are growing
at a phenominal rate.They are about 2 months now and I have norberti that
are 3 months andsome of the hongsloi are almost twice the size.I have never
seen a apisto grow so fast.
Vern.




Rotpunkt

by Jota Melgar <jsmelgar/compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999
To: "INTERNET:apisto/admin.listbox.com" <apisto/admin.listbox.com>

Bob,

The A. sp. "red strokes" is a population of A. hongsloi. 

Julio


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Rotpunkt

by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999
To: apisto/admin.listbox.com

Bob,

After reading all the responses that you got I am more convinced than ever that
the original name - be it in English, German, or Lower Slobovian (sensu Lil'
Abner, does that date me?) - should be the name used.

"Punkt" is German for "spot, dot, & point", so Rotpunk mean red spot, dot, or
point. Rotpunkt refers to the red spots (or dots) that lay above the anterior
part of the lateral band in this fish. Considering the fish, the name would be
better translated as red spot or red dot, not red point.

As Julio says, Red Stroke is an English translation of Rotstrich, but a poor one.
The blue form of A. hongsloi, with a red caudal peduncle and red streak along the
base of the anal fin was originally called Rotstrich Apistogramma. "Strich" in
German means "stroke, line, dash, streak, or stripe. Considering the fish, the
name would be better translated as Red-streak or Red-line, not Red-stroke.

>From your limited description I can't say which species you have. My bet would be
A. hongsloi (Rotstrich).

Mike (for nomenclatural purity über alles) Wise (LOL)

IDMiamiBob@aol.com wrote:

> I ended up with a pair at the auction that were labeled A. sp. "red strokes".
>  They were in the show as well under that name.  Does "red strokes" translate
> out in German to "rotpunkt", or is this a different fish?  It has the
> "zipper" on the lateral line and a subdued red in the unpaired fins.  It is
> redder in my tank than it was in Detroit.
>
> Bob Dixon
>
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Wild Hongsloi

by Frauley/Elson <fraulels/minet.ca>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

Rotstrich has been in the hobby for a long time, and I assume the German
and Czech commercial breeders have been trying to select for colourful
specimens, in much the same way as with veijita. I know rotsrich comes
from Colombia and Rio Cataniapo comes from just across the border in
Venezuala, but have there been recent documented collections of these
fish?
The German rotstrich I've seen recently seem to be losing the vivid
red/blue colour contrasts they had 2 or 3 years ago, but I wonder how
close the superb rotstrich I used to have were to the wild form. I had
fish just like the Linke photo in about 95-96.
I find a lot of the macmasteri group fish to be hard to get now, except
via Germany, as interest has shifted to the exciting new species of the
Rio Negro/Xingu etc. I know Mike Wise mentioned having guttata, but I
haven't heard much about recent imports of macmasteri/hoignei/hongsloi
/veijita or new macmasteri group fish.
Could any of the readers of German enlighten me?
Gary




Wild Hongsloi

by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

Gary,

You have brought up some interesting questions. I don't think I can answer them
completely, but here are some tidbits. The original Rotstrich Apisto was imported
to Germany from Colombia in 1975. Over the next 10 years imports arrived off an
on, apparently the same color population, to keep the Rotstrich in the hobby.
Additionally, hobbyists, mainly in then East Germany and Czechoslovakia, started
concerted campaigns to domesticate this species and developed a spectacular
Rotstrich with unusually brilliant reds, blues, & yellows. Interestingly, the
Rotstrich, even when originally imported, was a much deeper bodied fish than the
type material used by Kullander to describe A. hongsloi. In 1991 Dr. Staeck
reported on A. hongsloi and introduced the Rio Cataniapo form. This Venezuelan
form was more yellow and rarely, if ever, shows the red caudal patch and anal
streak of Rotstrich. Instead these areas are black. This form also does not have
the deep body of Rotstrich. It is more similar to Kullander's type material (from
Colombia). It is a good possibility we are looking at several sibling species -
how many I don't know. I am not even sure that the original Rotstrich is the real
(type locality) A. hongsloi. Although it probably is A. hongsloi, it doesn't
precisely fit the original description of this species. Obviously more collecting
& distribution data is needed.

I imagine that the loss in color from the original Rotstrich is caused by 2
factors. First, the original Rotstrich domestic varieties were developed and
distributed by dedicated hobbyists. Since then commercial operations have taken
over. Because these operations are interested in profit as much as quality, many
substandard specimens have entered the hobby. It is like comparing commercial
Guppies to those sold by Guppy breeders. The difference is like night & day.
Second, I fear that crossing of forms has occurred many times. The females of the
different forms are virtually impossible to separate. When new blood is added to
a colorful domestic strain, breeders usually use the most colorful male and most
robust female. This crossing may dilute the color of the original domestic
population. I'm not sure, but I think that the Colombian rebels & drug cartels
operate out to the area where the Rotstrich originally was exported from. If
true, the area may be too "hot" to collect right now.

As for the problem between the two hobbyists over A. hongsloi, I can empathize
with both sides. One, in good faith, was providing what he was told was (& sold
commercially as) A. hongsloi. Did he know that all A. hongsloi out there were not
Rotstrich? Probably not;  most hobbyists think A. hongsloi = Rotstrich Apisto.
The ASG's Apisto Species List has listed Rotstrich as A. hongsloi (Blue Form) for
10+ years. Their members should have recognized the difference. The other, in
good faith, expected Rotstrich Apistos, not necessarily A. hongsloi, and was
disappointed that the fish were not the Rotstrich. Does the fault lie with the
purchaser or the seller? A bit of both, I guess. Any seller, from my biased (and
it is biased) opinion, should know as much as possible about the fish he keeps.
On the other hand, the buyer should be very specific about what he wants. If I
had been looking for Rotstrich, I would start asking the seller specific
questions:

Does the male have a bright yellow face and sky blue flanks?
Is there a lot of red in the dorsal fin?
Is it a deep bodied (chunky) fish? and most important
Doe it have a broad bright red tail root and red streak along the origin of the
anal fin?

If the seller responds "Yes" to all of the above then he has Rotstrich (or is
lying through his teeth) and I would feel safe in buying them sight unseen. If
they came in different from what I described (the supplier was lying) then I have
a justifiable reason to be angry. If I didn't ask the appropriate questions, and
then received something other than Rotstrich, then I only have myself to blame.
Too little - and at times too much knowledge - on one side is a dangerous thing.

Mike Wise


Frauley/Elson wrote:

> Rotstrich has been in the hobby for a long time, and I assume the German
> and Czech commercial breeders have been trying to select for colourful
> specimens, in much the same way as with veijita. I know rotsrich comes
> from Colombia and Rio Cataniapo comes from just across the border in
> Venezuala, but have there been recent documented collections of these
> fish?
> The German rotstrich I've seen recently seem to be losing the vivid
> red/blue colour contrasts they had 2 or 3 years ago, but I wonder how
> close the superb rotstrich I used to have were to the wild form. I had
> fish just like the Linke photo in about 95-96.
> I find a lot of the macmasteri group fish to be hard to get now, except
> via Germany, as interest has shifted to the exciting new species of the
> Rio Negro/Xingu etc. I know Mike Wise mentioned having guttata, but I
> haven't heard much about recent imports of macmasteri/hoignei/hongsloi
> /veijita or new macmasteri group fish.
> Could any of the readers of German enlighten me?
> Gary
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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A. hongsloi (Alto Carinagua)

by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com



swaldron@slip.net wrote:

> Hi Mike,
> Thanks for your thoughts. I know it is a hongsloi and I know that is a
> polymorphic species. Despite Helen's misinterpretation of my words, I was
> not attacking your expertise, just questioning what you had meant by:
>
> >Considering where they
> >were collected, I wouldn't be
> >> surprised  if this form was part of the initial
> >wild stock used to develop the
> >> domestic Rotstrich strain.

Koslowski (1985, p. 95) wrote in his book, "In the past the frequent crossing of
A. hongsloi with the other species of the macmasteri-group led to the loss of the
blue [Rotstrich - mw] form  in the hobby.". We don't know how many populations of
A. hongsloi were used to develop the Rotstrich form in the 1980s, but it probably
wasn't exactly the same fish that Staeck introduced in 1976.

> I know that if I
> >wanted to add some "wild blood" into
> >> my Rotstrich strain, I would not be afraid to
> >use your form.
>
> Presently, the "rotstrich" might be the result of years of domestic
> selection but the fish I was referring to is depicted on pg. 69 of the
> englsih version of Linke and Staeck(and thought was receiving from Tim) is
> what we used to call "rotstrich" and is naturally occurring variant - that
> is where I became confused by the previous statement.

All I meant - and this was basically for Tim, not other apisto list members - was
that since the Alto Carinagua form has the same blue/yellow coloration of the
domestic Rotstrich that I felt that this fish could be crossed with line bred
Rotstrich if someone wanted a different blood line in their strain without
radically changing the strain. It would be the preferred population presently
available from the wild since the wild Rotstrich isn't coming in. Many of the
other forms now available are more yellow and brown in color. Personally, I feel
that inbred strains like Rotstrich do not need outcrossing if proper selection of
breeders is utilized, but others think differently.  I don't know if the
mentioned Staeck photo is of a wild form or a domestic form. I have never seen a
truly wildcaught Rotstrich form, but if you have I'll accept that they exist.

> Actually the Alto Carinagua
> >form seems to be intermediate between the type forms and Staeck's original
> >Rotstrich form.
>
> This was my concern with Tim's fish- is this a natural intermediate or an
> inter-populational hybrid?

By definition, a hybrid is usually considered a cross between species. If you
want to consider cross breeding of populations of the same species as hybrids,
then most of the colorful aquarium strains of apistos are hybrids - including
Rotstrich (see Kullander's statement above). If you, or anyone else, is worried
about getting hybrids, then I certainly wouldn't buy what is now almost certainly
a domestic color strain.

> I can't say that I'm familiar with every
> naturally occurring hongsloi variant but i have seen my share of wild
> caught imports over the years and this form looked strange...

In what way? I have seen my share of photos & fish of different populations, too,
including one in Schaefer's book, "Erfolg mit Zwergcichliden" (p. 43 bottom),
that quite closely corresponds with the description of the type specimens. As
anyone who has this book can attest, it is far from being spectacular, with no
red on it at all. The other male A. hongsloi on the top of the page is more like
Tim's although it doesn't show the blue & yellow color much at all (poor
lighting?). They certainly don't look like Rotstrich, but in truth it is
Rotstrich that doesn't look like the typical A. hongsloi.


> thinking back
> to the situation- prior to getting the fish from tim I spoke with some guy
> working at a fish store in Texas who had supposedly captured the fish in
> the wild and had sold Tim his stock- he described the male looking like a
> "rotstrich (i.e. linke and staeck pg. 69) but the offspring were obviously
> coming up looking different from that form and that is where some
> suspicions arose.

Tim gave me the name of the collector of his fish, an expatriate American now
living in Puerto Ayacucho, Colombia. Is this the same person you are talking
about? Tim also provided me with the precise collecting locality (including a
map!) for his fish, based on what the collector gave him. This collector is
fairly well respected in the hobby, so I tend to believe him and his collecting
data.

The real Rotstrich (deep bodied, blue/yellow form) is now rarely if ever seen in
the hobby (Does anyone out there still have it?). None of the new books on
apistos have pictures of it except for the Rotstrich picture you mention in Linke
& Staeck. But this photo is over 15 years old, published in their 1984 1st
edition. Schmettkamp pictures this same form in his 1982 book & Koslowski has a
picture of  it in his 1985 book. Since then all photos of A. hongsloi are of
other populations or domestic strains, none with the deep body (bd ~50%) of the
true Rotstrich. None are listed as Rotstrich, either, except for A. sp.
"Red-stroke" in Southamerican Cichlids II (p.68). This is an incorrect ID.
Actually this looks a lot like the fish Tim sent me, but with a bit more red on
the body. Even the authors admit it is similar to A. hongsloi I. I wouldn't be
surprised at all to find out that it was collected around Puerto Ayacucho like
Tim's. There are some deeper bodied forms, but none are as deep as the original
Rotstrich. They are probably crosses between the deep body Rotstrich form and
some of the more typical A. hongsloi forms.

I hope this clarifies my statements for you.

Mike Wise

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A. hongsloi (Alto Carinagua)

by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

Steven,

I will admit that I have never seen a "traditional" wild caught Rotstrich in the
flesh. And I do accept that there are more colorful forms (populations) of A.
hongsloi out there than Tim's Alto Carinagua form. But your statement that "it is
not the same animal" puzzles me. Do you mean "not the same population" or "not the
same species"? I will accept the former, but not the latter.

A. hongsloi is recognized as a polychromatic species (Koslowski, 1985; Zenner,
1989; Staeck, 1991). In particular the amount of red on the fish is known to be
highly variable even within individual populations. Presently the form known as A.
hongsloi (Rotstrich) is a highly developed - and beautiful - domestic strain, bred
over the past quarter century using fish from several populations to enhance the
amount of red on the fish. The original Rotstrich in the hobby were introduced by
Staeck (1976) using fish collected in Colombia. We don't know where his fish came
from, but it was obviously more colorful, at least in the red parts, than the Alto
Carinagua form. And based on Kullander's (1979) original description, both the
original Rotstrich and Alto Carinagua forms are more colorful than the (2) type
populations. In the original description Kullander's writes, "Hongslo noted the
coloration of the NRM 11236 lot when freshly killed: "Ground-colour light
grey-green. Stripes on belly and cross-bars on flanks grey-green. Lateral band
dark grey-green"." (The fish were probably collected with Rotenone.) There is no
mention of any red caudal patch or anal fin base stripe. I would expect that at
least some red would be visible - and noticeable - on freshly killed fish if it
was as extensive as on Staeck's Rotstrich. It's visible on freshly dead domestic
Rotstrich as an dark red color. Staeck's Rotstrich were also deeper bodied, so I
doubt that they came from Hongslo's type populations. Actually the Alto Carinagua
form seems to be intermediate between the type forms and Staeck's original
Rotstrich form. Regardless, body coloration is not necessary for apisto species ID
(Haven't I heard this somewhere before??). In this respect, the Alto Carinagua
form actually conforms more closely to the type forms than do Staeck's Rotstrich!

As I said in an earlier message, the problem seems to be the 2 hobbyists' concepts
of "A. hongsloi" and "Rotstrich". One can consider "Rotstrich" to mean all forms
of A. hongsloi, but this is wrong. Someone else may consider "A. hongsloi" to mean
Rotstrich exclusively, yet this is wrong, too. Rotstrich is merely a colorful
population of A. hongsloi. If you want a highly colorful form of A. hongsloi, ask
for Rotstrich - and make sure both sides understand what "Rotstrich" means. If you
are more interested in getting a unique population, search out the species with a
known collecting locality.

I will stick with my ID, the Alto Carinagua form is A. hongsloi, but not
Rotstrich.

Mike Wise

swaldron@slip.net wrote:

> I respect your opinon Mike but have you ever seen a "traditional" wild
> caught "Rotstrich" hongsloi? In the flesh, not just from photographs or
> written descriptions? I have on two occasions (rare import: this out of a
> 14 year career lurking wholesaler's tanks) and it is not the same animal.
>
> >I was recently sent some fish to verify an ID.
> >This was a fish that someone on the list claimed
> >was a hybrid. I was asked to forward the reply to
> >the Apisto Mailing List:
> >
> >> Tim,
> >>
> >> I was surprised when I received the pair of fish
> >you sent me. I was expecting to
> >> see something like Werner's A. cf. hongsloi
> >(Maripa) [Römer Atlas p. 483] or
> >> Staeck's A. cf. hongsloi (Cataniapo) [Linke &
> >Staeck p.70], especially since the
> >> Rio Cataniapo is just east of Puerto Ayacucho on
> >the Venezuelan side of the
> >> Orinoco. Instead if find a fish that looks more
> >like the traditional Rotstrich
> >> Apisto. After looking at your A. hongsloi in
> >various moods I can't see anything to
> >> make me think they are anything but wild caught
> >A. hongsloi. The body depth is the
> >> same as that described in the holotype. The
> >lateral band shows the same open
> >> lattice form of the type material. The other
> >dark markings seem to conform fairly
> >> closely, too. The colors, although not as
> >intense as domestic bred fish, are the
> >> same as those of Rotstrich - yellowish head &
> >breast and pale blue flanks. The red
> >> caudal patch & the streak along the insertion of
> >the anal fin (not described on
> >> the type material, by the way) are there, too,
> >just not as large, continuous, or
> >> extensive as on domestic bred Rotstrich.
> >Although not as spectacular as the
> >> domestic Rotstrich forms, your fish are
> >definitely more colorful than some other
> >> forms I have pictures of. Considering where they
> >were collected, I wouldn't be
> >> surprised  if this form was part of the initial
> >wild stock used to develop the
> >> domestic Rotstrich strain. I know that if I
> >wanted to add some "wild blood" into
> >> my Rotstrich strain, I would not be afraid to
> >use your form. I do, however, hope
> >> you will try to keep this population pure. I
> >hope this puts your mind at ease
> >> about what you have. If you have any other
> >questions please let me know.
> >>
> >> best wishes,
> >>
> >> Mike Wise
> >
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>
>                               Steven J. Waldron
>
>                              http://WWW.ANURA.ORG
>                "Natural History, Captive Husbandry, Conservation and
>                            Biophilia of Tropical Frogs"
>
>
>
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