You are at The Krib ->Apistogramma/Dwarf Cichlids [E-mail]

Papiliochromis/Microgeophagus ramirezi (The Ram Cichlid)

Here's a ``FAQ'' (really just an article) by Dean Fear.

Contents:

  1. Ram Cichlids...
    by oleg-at-netcom.com (Oleg Kiselev) (Tue, 6 Oct 1992)
  2. Pseudo - RAM FAQ
    by narten-at-cs.duke.edu (Thomas Narten) (18 Aug 94)
  3. Pseudo - RAM FAQ
    by hougen-at-centi.cs.umn.edu (Dean Hougen) (Wed, 24 Aug 1994)
  4. Pseudo RAM - FAQ
    by narten-at-cs.duke.edu (Thomas Narten) (12 Sep 94)
  5. My rams don't seem to eat. What to do?
    by "David W. Webb" <dwebb-at-ti.com> (27 Apr 1995)
  6. Breeding Rams...
    by urich-at-ix.netcom.com () (Mon, 12 Jun 1995)
  7. [F}Cichlid compatable w/Rams
    by hougen-at-peca (Dean Hougen) (Sun, 23 Jul 1995)
  8. Rams
    by lisa wrischnik <wrisch/mendel.Berkeley.EDU> (Wed, 28 Aug 1996)
  9. Ram nomenclature
    by JLWiegert/aol.com (Mon, 2 Sep 1996)
  10. Breeding Rams !?!?!?!
    by "Darren J. Hanson" <djhanson/calweb.com> (Tue, 20 Jan 1998)
  11. Rams wanted
    by Ken Laidlaw <K.Laidlaw/roe.ac.uk> (Thu, 22 Jan 1998)
  12. Breeding Rams !?!?!?!
    by Frauley/Elson <fraulels/minet.ca> (Wed, 21 Jan 1998)
  13. Breeding Rams !?!?!?!---Another thought
    by Ken Laidlaw <K.Laidlaw/roe.ac.uk> (Tue, 20 Jan 1998)
  14. blue ram varieties
    by "Ed Pon" <edpon/hotmail.com> (Wed, 11 Feb 1998)
  15. blue ram varieties
    by Ken Laidlaw <K.Laidlaw/roe.ac.uk> (Thu, 12 Feb 1998)
  16. sexing blue rams
    by "Newman, L" <Lee_Newman/bc.sympatico.ca> (Sat, 18 Jul 1998)
  17. Spawning Rams
    by "Helen T Burns" <hlnburns/thefree.net> (Fri, 5 Jun 1998)
  18. Spawning Rams
    by Lilia Stepanova <ls691035/bcm.tmc.edu> (Thu, 4 Jun 1998)
  19. R: ramirezi
    by "Newman, L" <Lee_Newman/bc.sympatico.ca> (Sun, 09 Aug 1998)
  20. German Blue Rams and pH
    by joel and angie wasdyke <joel_ang/visi.com> (Thu, 3 Sep 1998)
  21. German Blue Rams and pH
    by Steph & Dave <caligula/tig.com.au> (Thu, 03 Sep 1998)
  22. R: Tough to Breed
    by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com> (Sun, 23 Aug 1998)
  23. Ramirezi help
    by Charles Ray <raychah/auburn.campus.mci.net> (Fri, 18 Sep 1998)
  24. Observations on Blue Ram Parental Behavior
    by "David A. Youngker" <nestor10/mindspring.com> (Sun, 4 Oct 1998)
  25. Rams
    by Lilia Stepanova <ls691035/bcm.tmc.edu> (Mon, 2 Nov 1998)
  26. question on rams
    by "Helen Burns" <hlnburns/thefree.net> (Tue, 17 Nov 1998)
  27. question on rams
    by "Newman, L" <Lee_Newman/bc.sympatico.ca> (Tue, 17 Nov 1998)
  28. Barradas' Rams
    by Marco Lacerda <marcolacerda/ax.apc.org> (Fri, 11 Dec 1998)
  29. Typical M. Ramirezi & Gold Ram
    by IDMiamiBob/aol.com (Sat, 28 Aug 1999)
  30. Typical M. Ramirezi & Gold Ram
    by "Newman, L" <Lee_Newman/bc.sympatico.ca> (Sat, 04 Sep 1999)
  31. Ictio, help!
    by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com> (Tue, 09 Nov 1999)
  32. How 'bout that!
    by "Jose J.V. Carvalho" <zeco/bbci.com.br> (Thu, 4 May 2000)
  33. unusual behavior
    by BigJohnW/webtv.net (John Wubbolt) (Sun, 9 Jan 2000)
  34. Rams trio
    by "Stepanova, Lilia" <Lilia.Stepanova/stjude.org> (Tue, 6 Jun 2000)
  35. biotope
    by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com> (Sun, 29 Oct 2000)


Photo by Erik Olson


Photo by Ken Laidlaw


spawning pair


spawning pair


female with 8-wk-old fry

Photos by Helen Burns


gold ram

Photos by Kelly Beard

Ram Cichlids...

by oleg-at-netcom.com (Oleg Kiselev)
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992

In article <1992Oct6.012922.26844-at-mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> mhatz-at-nyx.cs.du.edu (Mike Hatz) writes:
>I the group's collective advice and got 4 Ram cichlids for my little 10 gallon
>this weekend.  I do have 2 questions though:

4 adult rams in a 10 may be a bit too tight unless you have a lot of plants
in the tank.

>1)  What is the most accurate way to sex them?  I am looking at their little
>"punk" hairdos and the eye bars.

The mature males will have very extended first few rays of the dorsal.  The
mature females will be smaller than males and their bellies turn deep red
when they are in the spawning mood.

>2)  Any tips to get them to breed?

Get at least 1 male and at least one female.  Put them in a tank with a flat
large pebble or a piece of slate and feed them plenty of live foods. They
will spawn.
-- 
Oleg Kiselev at home                    ...use the header to find the path

Pseudo - RAM FAQ

by narten-at-cs.duke.edu (Thomas Narten)
Date: 18 Aug 94
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria

In article <32vs55$l06-at-usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> dxf6-at-po.CWRU.Edu (Dean Fear) writes:

> Rams are very easy to maintain.

If you are lucky enough to find good quality specimans.  After going
through some 25 specimens in the last year, I can assure you good ones
are the exception.  But once you find them... I just transported mine
800 miles in a rubbermade tub, and one pair was itching to spawn when
they got here. Go figure.

> each sex.  Sexing rams is not difficult as they do show a
> reasonable amount of sexual dimorphism.

I would disagree. If you get good quality specimans, they might be
easy to sex.  But I've had some that I could only sex after watching
them spawn.  

> About 150 eggs are
> laid on a flat surface which can be a nicely removable piece of
> slate or more annoyingly the bottom of the tank itself.

My current pair seem to prefer digging a pit in the gravel to the
"smooth brown stone" most books recommend.
--
narten-at-cs.duke.edu


Pseudo - RAM FAQ

by hougen-at-centi.cs.umn.edu (Dean Hougen)
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria

In article <NARTEN.94Aug18131131-at-tmp144.cs.duke.edu> narten-at-cs.duke.edu (Thomas Narten) writes:
>In article <32vs55$l06-at-usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> dxf6-at-po.CWRU.Edu (Dean Fear) writes:
>> Rams are very easy to maintain.
>
>If you are lucky enough to find good quality specimans.  After going
>through some 25 specimens in the last year, I can assure you good ones
>are the exception.  But once you find them... I just transported mine
>800 miles in a rubbermade tub, and one pair was itching to spawn when
>they got here. Go figure.

I've got to agree with Thomas Narten here.  Many Rams, especially those
of Far Eastern origin, drop over for no apparent reason.  This happens
even after they have been in a tank and doing fine for a couple of
months.  (I'd also disagree with Dean Fear's statement that most Rams
are today bred in Florida.  If I'm not mistaken, they're mostly bred
in the Far East.)

>> Sexing rams is not difficult as they do show a
>> reasonable amount of sexual dimorphism.
>
>I would disagree. If you get good quality specimans, they might be
>easy to sex.  But I've had some that I could only sex after watching
>them spawn.  

I too have got to disagree with Dean Fear.  The traits he lists for
sexing Rams, such as anterior dorsal fin spine length, only work in
some instances.  I've seen pairs in which these traits (and another
commonly used trait -- the presense or absense of blue flank spots)
did not apply.

>> About 150 eggs are
>> laid on a flat surface which can be a nicely removable piece of
>> slate or more annoyingly the bottom of the tank itself.
>
>My current pair seem to prefer digging a pit in the gravel to the
>"smooth brown stone" most books recommend.

I've seen Far Eastern Rams breeding in pits in preference to on 
stones, and German Rams doing just the opposite, but I've not 
observed enough pairs of either to say with any confidence that
there is a correlation there.
>--
>narten-at-cs.duke.edu


Some other comments on Dean Fear's article (which, btw, was in
general a quite good article):

>>(Microgeophagus Ramirezi). 

Or Papiliochromis ramirezi.  (I think Papiliochromis will be the
name to win out in the long run.)  Or Apistogramma ramirezi, for 
people with outdated books.

>>It reminds one, in appearance as well as
>>personality, of a cross between a Geophagus and a "mickey mouse"
>>platy.  

While they are *very* distantly related to platys, Rams remind you of
Geophagus for a good reason, they're Geophagines.

>>(Interestingly enough the
>>battles tend to be with fish of the same sex and the opposition's
>>mate is generally ignored.)

There is a perfectly good evolutionary reason for this:  If you 
chase away (or injure) the fish of your same sex in the other pair,
you are left with another potential mate.  If, on the other hand,
you chase away (or injure) the fish of the opposite sex in the other
pair, you are left with a potential competator for your own mate.


>>My next project in the world of dwarf cichlids is breeding the
>>Bolivian Ram (Microgeophagus Altispinosa).  Hopefully, my
>>experience with M. ramirezi should help me succeed in this
>>endeavor.          

Good luck.  It still should be possible to find good quality 
specimens of M. altispinosa, but the Far East is getting in to the
act and driving down the quality here too.  I used to heartily
recommend Bolivian Rams to people interested in keeping and
breeding Rams but who were unable to find good quality fish.  Now
I do it with trepidation.


Btw, has anyone else noticed that there seem to be two regional
varieties of M. altispinosa -- a larger, less colorful morph and
a smaller, more colorful one?  I say morphs or regional varieties,
rather than aquarium strains, as I first noticed this several years
ago before they had been in the hobby long and before commercial
breeders had had time to mess up the stocks.


Dean Hougen, cichlidiot
--
"Little tanks, no bigger than your thumb."  - Oingo Boingo


Pseudo RAM - FAQ

by narten-at-cs.duke.edu (Thomas Narten)
Date: 12 Sep 94
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria

In article <phenders-060994075034-at-mac.bohs.brea.k12.ca.us> phenders-at-kn.pacbell.com (Phil Henderson) writes:

> Finally I asked a guy who breeds Discus and angels commercially and for
> show and also runs a small fish store. He said he didn't carry Rams anymore
> and here was his reason. He said that the Rams bred in South-east Asia were
> bred in very soft water. Putting them in the harder water water here made
> them very susceptible to a gill disease that wasn't apparent in its early
> stages but once it became apparent it was untreatable.

What this doesn't explain is that once I've had a Ram for a month or
two, its long-term prognosis is very good.  I've got Rams that I've
now had for 9 months.

Had the chance to speak with Paul Loiselle over the weekend. Of
course, I had to ask about Rams. He said that pretty much all Rams
come from the far east. (BTW, this includes the so-called "German"
Rams, which are called "Singapore" Rams in Europe.) Rams seem
susceptible to and/or frequently carry intestinal bacterial(?)
parasites, which often causes them to appear healthy and then suddenly
die.  He suggested feeding them an antibacterial food for a week or so
immediately upon getting them to clean out their systems.
--
narten-at-cs.duke.edu


My rams don't seem to eat. What to do?

by "David W. Webb" <dwebb-at-ti.com>
Date: 27 Apr 1995
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria

hlg9681-at-uxa.cso.uiuc.edu () wrote:
>
> I recently bought 4 rams for my 20 gallon high aquarium.  They
> seem healthy and active, and the water conditions are right for
> them (pH 6.6, no ammonia or nitrite).  The problem is that they
> seem not to eat at all.  They spit out every food that I've tried
> (flakes, pellets, freeze-dried tubifex, frozen brine shrimp).  Do
> I need to go to live foods?  The only live foods in my are pet shops
> are blackworms.  By the way, I've had the rams for only 4 days.
> 
4 rams may be a lot for a 20 gallon.  

If they have any feces, is it a clearish-white, stringy stuff?  If so,
they may have hexamita.  This is very common among rams.  I've read
that Clout can eliminate the parasite if you can get them to eat anti-
parasitic food.  

My rams often grab and then spit out the food I feed them.  They 
chew on it a little while it is in their mouths, then spit it out 
and try to go for a smaller piece.  I think this is normal.  The 
problem occurs when more aggressive eaters snatch up the food that
my rams have so graciously chewed up already.

I've been most successful with Discus Formula as a food for my rams.

They also like warm water (84 - 85 F).

Hope this helps,

---------------------------------------------------------
David W. Webb                                            
dwebb-at-ti.com                                             
                                                         
Any correlation between my opinions and those of Texas   
Instruments is purely coincidental.  (I don't speak for  
TI)                                                      
---------------------------------------------------------



Breeding Rams...

by urich-at-ix.netcom.com ()
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995
Newsgroup: sci.aquaria

koolkid-at-cac.washington.edu (Timothy F. Lee {UCS}) wrote:

>I am fairly new to the the idea of breeding tropical fish.  Since Rams are
>by-far my most favorite of tropical fish, I was wondering how easy would it
>be to breed Rams.  Also, is there anyone who can help me with setting up
>the necessary conditions for breeding Rams.  One other note, how do I tell
>a female Ram from a male Ram?  I am refering to Rams in general.
>Thanks...
>--tim
>-------------------------------------------

I've had good success spawning Blue Rams. I have two pair that spawn
like clockwork each 19 days.  Each individual was purchased at
different times and at different stores .

The main thing is to get good healthy stock to begin with. *All* Rams
I've seen in stores are usually in very bad condition. Pick out the
best looking then feed them a variety of foods, including a variety of
live foods.  Feed often in small quantities.  Rams are very shy so you
should include a small school of Tetras in the tank. The Tetras are
faster so be careful that the Rams are getting enough.

Female Rams have a red or pinkish belly and the tip of the dorsal fin
nearest the tail is slightly rounded.  The tip of the male dorsal fin
is distinctly pointed.  The difference is very slight so you'll have
to study carefully. 

Water I use is neutral pH and soft (60ppm) obtained by mixing RO water
(from a local drinking water vender) mixed with tap water (60% RO, 40%
tap in my case). I change 25% weekly.  When the Rams are in good
health I adjust the temperature of the change water so that it's 2-3
degrees *cooler* than the tank water. 

Rams spawn on flat rocks so include several in each tank. I found it
best to place a small plastic plant in front of each flat rock so that
the Rams feel more secure.  After spawning I usually remove the eggs
to hatch and rear separately.

As with Angels and Discus, etc., the key is good health, live food,
and frequent water changes.

Hope this helps...

Russ



[F}Cichlid compatable w/Rams

by hougen-at-peca (Dean Hougen)
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995
Newsgroup: rec.aquaria

In article <LSARAKON.95Jul22211054-at-delta.hut.fi>,
Liisa Sarakontu <lsarakon-at-snakemail.hut.fi> wrote:
>Papiliochromis should be the right name, and it is always used here in 
>Europe. Americans often use Microgeophagus. I can't remember the whole
>story but it was something like this: Ram was first named as Apistogramma.
>Later TFH invented name Microgeophagus in one article, and about the same 
>time Ram was redescribed and renamed as Papiliochromis in Europe (Germany?). 
>TFH and Axelrod still claim that their name is valid.
>
>Liisa Sarakontu

I won't go into all the details, unless somebody is truly interested,
but I will say that Liisa is essentially right with two exceptions:

1)  Kullander (a Swede, not a German) erected Papiliochromis well after
Axelrod used the name Microgeophagus and was well aware of Axelrod's use
of it.  He believed (and I agree) that Axelrod's use of it did not
constitute a proper establishment of a generic name.

2)  The correct generic name is Mikrogeophagus.  That's right, with
a 'k'.  I know you haven't seen it in any of the books.  You will.


Dean Hougen, cichlidiot
--
"That name does not exist in any language."  - Talking Heads


Rams

by lisa wrischnik <wrisch/mendel.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996
To: apisto/aquaria.net


Hi everyone,
Before I evicted my German Rams to make room for more apistos,
I had several pairs in a 40 gal tank, and I did manage to
raise up some fry.  The tank itself was heavily planted, with
driftwood and clay tiles for the fish to spawn upon.

I tried to keep the hardness between 20-30ppm by mixing tap water
with RO water.  I kept the pH between 5-5.5 using a non-
phosphorus-containing acid buffer (Kent pH minus). To keep the
pH at safe levels, though, I would do many water changes with
water of a slightly higher pH than this, and I used my handheld
pH meter rigorously! Wright is probably correct about the
advantages of peat-I have bags at home, but I'm just too lazy
to boil the stuff. (Yeah, but I'll do all that pH-ing. Sigh).
Instead, I have been using Blackwater Extract.

In regards to whether or not Kevin has a pair, I think
that Wright's description was correct: my females had shorter
anterior dorsal rays and also had pronounced pink bellies compared
to the males. In my case, the females were also substantially 
smaller than the males (3-4 cm vs. 7-8 cm or so).

One of the biggest problems that I had was that my German Rams 
were kinda stupid.  None of my various pairings ever learned how 
to care for the fry, so I was forced to raise the eggs myself. I
believe that Golden Rams are also an aquarium strain, so Kevin
might have the same problem.

Raising the fry had its own set of problems, too, and I wasn't ever 
too successful.  I would put the eggs (and whatever they were laid
on) into a tupperware container that I floated in the same tank as
the parents.  These containers had openings for water flow covered
with netting, and I would let part of the outflow of a sponge filter
fall into the container.  

The times I had success were when this container was disgusting 
and filled with gunk and algae.  The tiny fry may have been eating
 some of the Liquifry I was feeding them, but I think they mostly 
ate whatever other little beasties were being cultured in the gross 
container.  When I tried raising fry in clean, new containers on 
Liquifry alone, I would lose them. I did'nt try APR, so maybe that 
would work better.  Within a few days the fry can eat baby brine.

(There is a very knowledgeable aquarist in England who did a 
very detailedanalysis of this phenomenon and sent it to "he to 
whom I am married"; he found that his Ram fry never touched 
Liquifry itself, but that the Liquifry was a good thing to add to 
a "fry container"(floating margarine cups, in this case) because 
it stimulated bacterial growth, which the fry would eat.). I learned
this a little too late.

Ummm, so there.  I seem to have gotten a little carried away. 

May as well start a thread while I'm here: How many times do
most of you let your females spawn unsuccessfully before 
removing the eggs or fry?  For example, I have several 
young females that started off doing a poor job of fry-
rearing. For example, my N. anomala has laid 4 clutches 
of eggs and only had fry once, which she then abandonded 
after several days.  The same happened to my A. borelli.
So far, I just let them keep trying, but I would like to know 
what others do in these situations. 
Thanks,
Lisa 
wrisch-at-mendel.berkeley.edu 


Ram nomenclature

by JLWiegert/aol.com
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996
To: apisto/aquaria.net

AFAIK, its Pappilochromis with the change still pending -- that is most
people are using Pappilochromis (Which I'm probably misspelling) but it
hasn't been made official yet, but probably will be.....  Anyhow, onto
breeding them.  Rams are notoriously difficult to breed -- for mostly one
reason.  Many of our stocks come in from the East, where they don't have any
problem with using various hormones.  Males are more colourful, so they make
more of them......  Hence, 90% of our stock in the country is all males,
unless you are lucky enough to get WC or stock from someone localy (I don't
know about the German Rams...  I assume they've been spaired the treatment of
hormones?) you are not going to be able to breed them.  For a better shot, go
with P. altispinosa, [hey, I can't spell didly skwat] the Bolivian or Ruby
Ram.  It gets a little larger, and is a lot easier to breed, mostly because
you can get females... :-)>
<><
J. L. Wiegert


Breeding Rams !?!?!?!

by "Darren J. Hanson" <djhanson/calweb.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

I have had one experience with the Rams. I had 2 pair in a 20 gallon tank on
the bottom of a three tier tank. One pair had a 'house' in the back of the
tank and the other (the one that spawned) had a 'house' at the front of the
tank. They also had no light to speak of except for what came in the window.
One day when I was checking tanks to do water changes (which hadn't been
done for 2 weeks) I noticed the pair had free swimming fry with them. Once I
saw them thought I left a light on over their tank and the next day all the
fry were gone. My pH was 7.2 and hardness was 5.

Once I moved the pair to their own tank and kept an eye on the tank for
future spawnings, I had none. I just lucked out that one time.

Kaycy


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!



Rams wanted

by Ken Laidlaw <K.Laidlaw/roe.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com


> I'd be surprized if in a town the size of Chicago you had to hunt hard to find
> rams in a pet shop.  They are regulars at chains like Petsmart, Petco, and
> Walmart.

Yes, but can you get females?  Most pet stores sell Rams 
from the far east which are exclusivley males.

Ken.

*****************************
Ken Laidlaw
Royal Observatory, Edinburgh
Web: http://www.roe.ac.uk
*****************************




-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!



Breeding Rams !?!?!?!

by Frauley/Elson <fraulels/minet.ca>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

Mark Westling wrote:
> 
> Since rams are one of those mass-produced fish you see in nearly every fish
> store, I'm guessing that in the strains we see there hasn't been any
> selection for good parenthood characteristics in years.  Has anyone ever
> run across wild caught rams?
> 
> --Mark
> 
Hi
I had a nice group of wild rams (til the tedious ice storm - they died
of its after-effects yesterday...). I hadn't spawned them yet, but the
main observation I can pass on is they were way more territorial and
aggressive than any selected forms I've kept. They were downright
cichlid-like. I was expecting fierce broodcare, based on their rowdy
territorial defence against all comers.
My old German blue rams were territorial, but not like my wilds. I was
surprised by their behaviour - it was like having a different species.
They were more like Biotodomo cupido than traditional pet-shop rams.
-Gary


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!



Breeding Rams !?!?!?!---Another thought

by Ken Laidlaw <K.Laidlaw/roe.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com


> HI all
> 
> Since I am also trying to breed Rams, I would like to ask if the male should
> be removed after the spawning which seems to be the advice for Apistos?
> Thanks,
> Leo

Male and female Rams are both active in the care of eggs 
and fry so leave both in the tank unless you feel one of 
the fish has too great a taste for the eggs, not 
necessarily the male though.

There is some debate over removing male Apistos after 
spawning.  In my experience I have only ever had one 
successful spawning with the male left in the tank.  
Perhaps if the tank is big enough leaving the male in makes 
no difference.  I use small tanks (18x10x10).

Ken.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!



blue ram varieties

by "Ed Pon" <edpon/hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

>How do you sex Blue Rams?

Female blue rams have flourescent blues specks in the black spot in the 
middle of their bodies.  Females also get some color in the belly area 
when they are very ripe (ready to breed)--similar to the area where 
female convict cichlids get some color (sorry I couldn't tell you what 
color, I'm partially color-blind).

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!



blue ram varieties

by Ken Laidlaw <K.Laidlaw/roe.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

Hi,

I'd say the specks on the black body spot is the most 
obvious difference also.  On each side of the spot are a 
vertical gold band which the males do not have.  

Hope you have success, I've spawned Rams a few times but 
they have always eaten the eggs.  They seem to have a very 
short life as well, or perhaps I just cannot look after 
them properly. 

Ken.

> >How do you sex Blue Rams?
> 
> Female blue rams have flourescent blues specks in the black spot in the 
> middle of their bodies.  Females also get some color in the belly area 
> when they are very ripe (ready to breed



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!



sexing blue rams

by "Newman, L" <Lee_Newman/bc.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

Hello Tsuh Yang Chen and Rich,

'Blue rams' can be sexed using a variety of characteristics. The males
are generally larger (most prominent in adults), have slightly longer
fins (dorsal) and lack the blue spangles in the black mid-lateral spot
found in the females. Wild fish are very easy to distingush, but the
cultured varieties may be a little harder, assuming both sexes are
present. If I were asked for one reliable difference, I would say the
blue spangles within the black mid-lateral blotch is the best method (it
also works on young fish and the cultured varieties).

As for the Bolivian rams, the differences are more subtle. Males
generally have longer extensions on the upper and lower rays of the
caudal fin, however, this works only for adults and some of the cultured
stock may sport these extensions in both sexes. Perhaps the most
reliable way of getting both sexes, is to pick out shorter, more
'stocky' fish as well as some more elongate ones. The short and stocky
ones would be the females. Extra fish are relatively easy to surplus. 

Hope this helps.

Lee Newman (Vancouver)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!


Spawning Rams

by "Helen T Burns" <hlnburns/thefree.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998
To: "Apisto Mail List" <apisto/majordomo.pobox.com>

>but actually never even heard about them being able to rise the youngs.
>
>I have once by a contributor to this list, Helen.  Perhaps she can
enlighten you.

Yes, my pair of Rams successfully bred and reared their young in a 5
(imperial gallon) "species" tank with no intervention from myself.  I found
them to be excellent parents, in fact the fry remained with the parents
until they were off newlly hatched brine shrimp and microworm culture which
was at 6 weeks of age.  At eight weeks the fry were removed to a rearing
tank where they flourished.  Approximately 150 were raised to adulthood. 
The parents then spawned again with the same success.
May I add that Ram fry were initially the slowest growing Dwarf fry that I
have had success with.
What I am noticing with the incomming mail is the speed at which advice is
given to remove spawns from parents.  I totally disagree with this and
something I have never done.  I have in the past 4 years successfully (my
Apistos have) bred and reared 19 different species without interference.
If you have to house pairs in a community tank the chances are that they
will indeed spawn, leave well alone and if the fry are are eaten prepare a
"species" tank and then transfer the pair to that and leave them in peace
to do the "business".
Helen


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!



Spawning Rams

by Lilia Stepanova <ls691035/bcm.tmc.edu>
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com


Hi, recently I had a lot of problems with my rams spawns, but I think I 
figured out the best way and have now about 300+ fry and 3 females wishing 
to spawn with the same male again. 
The most important things as I figured out are
	
	Take them to their own tank. The best size is 2.5 g to 5g. Tested 
 	BAD choices are 
		leaving them in the same tank
		using a plastic box floating in the big tank
		using 'fry net' in the big tank

	Make waterchanges 50% every day. Skiping even once can lead to 
	fry death (all of the fry). I do changes with pure RO water

	LOTS of food. Before I started infusoria culture, I could rise 
	only several fry from a spawn (200-300 eggs), now 100% of fry 
	survives

	Remove rotten eggs twice a day, it is better then using methyl 
	blue, since methyl does not prevent rot of unfertilized eggs, I 
	am not using it at all now with greater success.

	Conditions (temperature, pH) should be very stable.

	Nothing can guarantee success unless you have the right pair. 
	The problem of male infertility is real. I made experiments side 
	by side and out of 3 males only one was fertile, and out of 3 
	females all were fertile but in different degrees (from 20% to 
	100% of eggs hatched after fertilization with the best male)

Best wishes! I found my attempts to rise the fry very challenging and now 
wonder if the city will be able to absorb that many blue rams to come soon!

Lilia

On Thu, 4 Jun 1998 SirTrust-at-aol.com wrote:

>       My pair of Blue Rams(papliochromis ramirezi) spawned last night on one
> of several flat brown rocks I have scattered through out my tank. The parents
> are zealously guarding the eggs right now. I would appreciate any information
> on how best to raise this spawn. Should I remove the eggs to another tank  or
> will they be ok where they are? I have a 55 gallon tank > It houses two pairs
> of rams , a pleco and about 15 neons. It is also well planted with live
> plants. Your help would greatly be appreciated .
>                             
>                                                                               
> Thanks,
>                                                                               
> Paul 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
> For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
> email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
> Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
> 


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!



R: ramirezi

by "Newman, L" <Lee_Newman/bc.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

Hi Simone,
> 
> Thanks Kaycy, thanks Lee and tanks Lilia, for your answers, I tried to
> lower the hardness a little more and put some peat to lower the Ph to 6 or
> a little less, now the water it's almost pure RO, 

I think your water conditions sound fine. Just remember to keep the
water changes regular as rams are sensitive to poor water quality.

>but my rams don't pair
>up, and the only male keep fighting and chasing the two females.

The wild Colombian rams I have did the same thing - the male was
aggressive towards the females until one of them became ripe. Then the
male began to court her. I think you just need to be patient. 
 
> I bought some H.loretoensis as dithers and two neons, but this helped only
> in part, 

I use common guppies as dithers as tetras are predatory towards
free-swimming cichlid fry for the first week or so. The guppies don't
seem to notice the fry and the cichlids can easily keep the guppies away
from the fry if they do get too close.

> maybe they are too small to breed, so I'm trying to feed them
> heavily to let them grow a little bigger.

This should ripen the females within weeks.

> What I cannot understand is why the male keeps doing that, aren't they
> supposed to form a pair and remain toghether all the time? Do I have to buy
> another male? or  do I have to just wait?

When they do pair they generally stay bonded as long as their
reproductive cycles remain in sync (both wanting to spawn at the same
time). I have a pair in a 360 litre aquarium that have been bonded for
about 6 weeks so far. Another male may only help if the aquarium is big
enough to house two pairs - probably should be at least 90 cm. Wait -
that is always good advice!
 
> Thanks a lot for your help, and for your patience with all those questions.
> 
> Have a great day
> Simone Vicini (svicini-at-lcnet.it)

Hope this helps.

Lee
Vancouver, Canada.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!


German Blue Rams and pH

by joel and angie wasdyke <joel_ang/visi.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998
To: apisto/listbox.com

These experiments might interest those of you who are blue ram fans.

>From previous discussions on several boards I decided to conduct some
experiments with spawning rams in various pHs. I set up 13 pairs for these
tests at different pHs.

The standard method for hatching the eggs was to fill a gallon container
with tank water, siphon the eggs into the container 24 hours after spawning,
float the container in the main tank and see what the hatch percentage was
after 48 hours. The water in the container was exchanged with tank water
twice daily. The water was 75%RO/25%tap.

For the first set of tests I did not add any anti-fungal or airstones to the
containers.

At 5.5 a hatch percentage of 80%-90% was acheived.
At 6.0 50%-70% was acheived.
At 6.5 20%-30% was achieved.
At 7.0 0% was achieved.

In all cases the ones that did not hatch fungused very quickly.

To change the experiment I then added meth blue and airstones to the
containers and did not change the water.

At 7.0 a 70%-90% was achieved. I have not tried lower yet as I do not think
that the percentage will get appreciably higher.

One item about this is that none of the higher pH hatches has been hatched
longer than 3 weeks yet and that is when they will die off after hatching.
The higher pH may still have some affect on the fry.  The lower pH data is
based on earlier spawns and will be updated with info from new spawns at the
lower pH.

(post date information. At this time, one week after hatching in 7.0, the
survival rate is down to about 25%.)

One other item. One of the males in the pairs has the color pattern of a
gold ram. It is showing a lack of black markings from the gill plates to the
tail. I am not sure if this is a fright coloration or if it will keep it as
it grows. Either way, I am keeping some of the young when this pair spawns
to see if it
follows into the next generation and see how many generations it takes to
keep the pattern on most of the fish hatched.  Also, even at the 1" length
the pairs are pretty vicious about protecting the eggs.

Joel 


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!


German Blue Rams and pH

by Steph & Dave <caligula/tig.com.au>
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

I have to agree with Joel - kinda.

I had a spawn that fungused extremely quickly at pH of 7.0
However at pH 6.7 with an airstone only - no meth blue I estimate a
better than 70% hatch rate.  I did however get a large number of belly
sliders (airstone too vigorous?) 55 free swimming:15 belly sliders.
At 3 weeks after spawning I have more than 40 fry.  The biggest is
approx 1cm.

My water is tap water treated with Seachem Acid Buffer and a small
amount of peat in the filter.

steph


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!


R: Tough to Breed

by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

Simone,

I think your problem has been your source for Rams.  Some of the toughest dwarfs
I ever had were some WILD-CAUGHT Rams.  They came in looking like little gray
mice, but turned into spectacular specimens.  As a bonus I got several Apisto.
viejita color form III with them!  I kept them in my normal tap water (soft and
neutral) and around 28ºC (82ºF).  No paracites or diseases.

Mike Wise

Simone Vicini wrote:

> >  Does anyone have any opinions on how to rank the different
> >species in which are hardest to breed?  I've found that many of them
> >(not all!) are not too difficult if follow the advise that turns up on
> >this forum.  I'd like to hear stories on which are the most difficult.
> >I'd like to try some of the difficult ones to satisfy my curiosity.
>
> Here I am.
>
> Ramirezi!!!!!! the most difficoult for me!!!!
>
> More than a month till now and lost 3 specimens and other three infested
> with Hexamita, the first 2 died of a tubercolosys (sp?) the other because of
> a fight and these three seems to recover well now after the metrodinazole
> cure. (thanks Maladorno Dionigi)
>
> Kaycy helped me with these fishes and I think she got bored with all the
> problems I had with them (you will never figure out how many answers she had
> to listen to :-((  ),  she is still helping me and I'm sure I will have a
> spawn from them soon or later. All the other fishes were doing great in my
> tank but I decided to treat everything (except for the fishes ;-)) with HCl
> and bleach, I hope I have sterilized everything.
>
> Now I'm going to restart again, acid RO water, weekly water changes, peat,
> good frozen food (BS, Bloodworms) three or two times a day.
>
> Just my experience (here in Italy a lot of us have problem with rams)
> Bye
> Simone Vicini (svicini-at-lcnet.it)
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
> For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
> email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
> Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!





-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!


Ramirezi help

by Charles Ray <raychah/auburn.campus.mci.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

Yes, I did mean 8 weeks.  In 1997 I kept detailed records of my spawnings
and fish growth.  Fish freeswimming on January 3 laid eggs on March 1.
These fish were taken to Chicago and sold at the ACA as 2-inch males and
1-1/4 to 1-1/2 inch females.  Most of those fish had successfully bred
several times by July.  Fish were fed a minimum of four times per day, a
mixture of frozen brine, live BBS, frozen bloodworms (the primary food),
and live daphnia on weekends.  Water changes were made 1 - 3 times per
week, 25% per change, with straight R/O water.  Rams seem to need more
frequent feedings than Apistos and will grow extremely rapidly if provided
four or more daily feedings of generous amounts of food.  Fish were bred in
10 gallon bare bottom tanks, fed infusoria and BBS for the first three to
four days, then switched to primarily BBS and live daphnia.  At about three
weeks, shaved frozen brine and frozen bloodworms were added to the diet.
At about 1/4" fry were moved into 40 gallon breeder tanks with watersprite
cover.  Clutches ranged from about 65 to 206 fry.  Beginning at 8 weeks,
there were constantly pairs spawning in the grow-out tanks.  It was not
unusual to have 10 pairs with eggs simultaneously in a tank of 100 fish. I
don't know if I had a particularly vigorous strain but I was able to
consistently produce males 1 - 1-1/4 inches SL and females 5/8 - 7/8 inches
SL that were breeding in 8 weeks. I haven't bred any rams in almost a year,
all my tanks have been given to Apistos.  I cannot turn out breeding
Apistos in 8 weeks no matter what the feeding schedule but I keep trying.

Charles Ray

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Charles Ray <raychah-at-auburn.campus.mci.net>
>
>
>>filter, and some floating water sprite.  Rams will begin breeding at 8
>>weeks of age and will breed every ten days for virtually the length of
>>their lives.
>>
>Hello Charles,
>Do you really mean 8 weeks?
>When I was fortunate to breed Ramirezi the fry were 6 weeks old before
>they came off newly hatched brine shrimp and ten months old before they
>started to pair off and successfully breed.
>Helen
>
>
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
>For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
>email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
>Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!




-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!


Observations on Blue Ram Parental Behavior

by "David A. Youngker" <nestor10/mindspring.com>
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998
To: "Apisto Mailing List" <apisto/majordomo.pobox.com>

I've been keeping _M. ramirezi_ for some time now, and like quite a few have
often been disappointed at the initial attempts to induce "proper" parental
behaviors in new breeding pairs. It's almost like trying to "deprogram" a
(insert religious sect of choice) convert at times. But in reading some of
the banter tossed back- and- forth concerning collecting trips, habitats,
population densities, etc., I seem to have stumbled on a technique that
works amazingly well on these intended breeders.

I crowd the (insert expletive of choice) out of the tank.

The tank I'm working with now is one of my "standard" 15 gal longs,
measuring 30*12*12 in. Current population: 6 _M. ramirezi_, 4 _M.
altispinosa_, 22 _P. axelrodi_, 1 _S. nigriventris_ and even a handful of
Glass Shrimp.

The results have been similar and easily repeatable for four differing
groups of Rams now under these conditions. Pair formations seem more
spontaneous, and breeding behaviors soon follow. From the very first nest,
the pair make honest attempts to protect the clutch, sharing in normal guard
and patrol behavior. Naturally at such densities losses are high, but this
leads merely to another clutch where the choice of location often improves
along with a better "sense" of the competetion. They seem to be more
successful at getting the eggs to the fry stage by then and at least one of
the pairs will end up with a small cloud of fry. But again, it's hard to
protect them against multi- directional "flash" attacks and you'll lose
those fry too. Yet the Rams do *try*, which seems all too rare with Rams
available today.

I'm assuming it's the crowded conditions that trigger the responses, but I
haven't collected enough information to be able to fix the cause. Two
readily- formulated SWAGs easily come to mind, though. Large numbers and
increased competetion may reinforce an innate territorality where team
efforts increase the ability to protect scarce resources, to which progeny
becomes an extension. Or it may boil down to a case of simple stress
reaction, where paired behavior increases the likelihood of survival for
your gene pool. Observation of the pairs seems to indicate more of the
former, as their health and other typical behavior patterns appear
unaffected.

But I do know this: A pair of new Rams, after making three attempts in a
full tank, can be transferred to their own breeder along with a few
Cardinals for dither/targets, and they become a joy to behold as parents
again. I'm hoping to continue this through a few clutches for each pair to
determine if the pattern "sticks". And on subsequent generations for
possible reinforcement.

But I was wondering if anyone else had noticed this pattern before? And if
the technique might be adaptable as a possibility with some of the more
difficult species (true aggression taken into consideration)?

Oh, I can provide detailed tank specs - they seem to really enjoy this
particular environment.

-Y-

David A. Youngker
http://www.mindspring.com/~nestor10
nestor10-at-mindspring.com



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com.
Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!


Rams

by Lilia Stepanova <ls691035/bcm.tmc.edu>
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com


Hi,

I rather have 8 rams in a tank, 2 males and 6 females. They do form pair for 
spawning and defend eggs together against everyone else. I am pulling 
eggs from mine, it may be controversial but they ate their eggs before. 
They separate after that and male starts to court next female choosing one 
most ready to spawn. They are not harem spawning in terms male has one 
female at a time, but they are not truly monogamous because male pairs 
with anyone ready and parts easily for the next. I believe here is a term 
for this kind of behavior. The first batch of fry I pulled from them (F2, 
if count the store fish as F0) is doing fine and I had only 3 dead eggs. 
Did anyone tried to feed them San Francisco BS which is said to be 2 
times smaller than regular? Ram freeswimmers are too small to eat 
regular in the beginning, and require something smaller. My highest 
losses of fry were at stage then they do not eat BS, and with SanF BS I 
hoped to reduce losses. 

Did anyone at all tried SF BS? 

Lilia 



On Sun, 1 Nov 1998 kathy@thekrib.com wrote:

> 
> 
> On Sat, 31 Oct 1998, lewis weil wrote:
> 
> > Hmm. I have always heard Ramerizi was a harem breeder. I was just 
> 
> I haven't breed these myself, so I can only give accounts of what others
> have done.
> I was just in Houston and dropped by Lilia's.  She had 6 rams..2 males
> and 4 females in a tank...a 20 I believe.  I also got to see the batches
> of fry from these guys...looks like they harem spawn to me.  They are
> also the only fish in the tank.  She has a strain that is very
> interesting....a long finned variety including the tail, wish I had a
> camera, I will try next visit.  They were gorgeous!!
> 
> Kathy
> k
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@majordomo.pobox.com.
> For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
> email apisto-request@majordomo.pobox.com.
> Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
> 


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@majordomo.pobox.com.
For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
email apisto-request@majordomo.pobox.com.
Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!


question on rams

by "Helen Burns" <hlnburns/thefree.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998
To: <apisto/majordomo.pobox.com>

Good news you have both sexes.  I have found that males have one black spot
whereas the females have a broken spot which gves the impression of having
two black spots.
Helen.

From: K & D martin <martndk@ibm.net>
>Ok, i've noticed that on a couple of my micro. altispinossas that they have
>two spots along the lateral line (line that runs down the middle of their
>bodies horizontally, right? or where one would be if you could see it) and
>the others only have a small black spot or a big black spot.  what does
this
>signify??anything?



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@majordomo.pobox.com.
For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
email apisto-request@majordomo.pobox.com.
Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!


question on rams

by "Newman, L" <Lee_Newman/bc.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

Helen Burns wrote:
> 
> Good news you have both sexes.  I have found that males have one black spot
> whereas the females have a broken spot which gves the impression of having
> two black spots.
> Helen.
> 
> From: K & D martin <martndk@ibm.net>
> >Ok, i've noticed that on a couple of my micro. altispinossas that they have
> >two spots along the lateral line (line that runs down the middle of their
> >bodies horizontally, right? or where one would be if you could see it) and
> >the others only have a small black spot or a big black spot.  what does
> this
> >signify??anything?

I'm not so sure it is such a clear case of sexual dimorphism. I have
both males and females that behaviourally express a single mid-lateral
blotch when not spawning. However, the same fish express a broken
blotch, giving the appearance of two blotches, when breeding. I think,
to a large extent, that the mid-lateral blotch is behaviourally
expressive - its appearance depends on 'mood'.

Hope that helps.

Lee


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@majordomo.pobox.com.
For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
email apisto-request@majordomo.pobox.com.
Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!


Barradas' Rams

by Marco Lacerda <marcolacerda/ax.apc.org>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998
To: apisto-list <apisto/majordomo.pobox.com>

About one year ago, I've got some wild rams collected by a German friend 
in Venezuela near the town of Barradas.
At first, the fishes were small and didn't show much color or something 
special.
But when they became adults, they have developed brilliant colors, and 
for my opinion, much different from the Asian bred rams we normally see 
in the trade.

Basically, the Barradas population is much slender bodied than the Asian 
ones (that, from the photos I have seen, are quite "robust"), and with 
much more blue than the "normal" rams. Some individuals also have upper 
and lower caudal fin lobes with red color (like Microgeophagus 
altispinosa).

Does anybody know something about rams bred in other countries? Are they 
deep-bodied like the Asian stock too? Do they look (according to above 
description) with Barradas fish?

Cheers, Marco.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@majordomo.pobox.com.
For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
email apisto-request@majordomo.pobox.com.
Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!


Typical M. Ramirezi & Gold Ram

by IDMiamiBob/aol.com
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999
To: apisto/admin.listbox.com

Sherry writes:

> I saw some Rams (M. Ramirezi) at my LFS today. I asked the salesperson to
>  bag up four of them for me. Once I got home, I realized I had gotten only
>  three regular Rams, and one Gold Ram. My questions are:  
>           Will the two types inter-breed?

Yes

 Am I right in assuming the Gold Ram
>  is just a color variation?

Yes.  It is a captive bred variation that does not occur in the wild, or at 
least does not survive in the wild. 
 
>       Is it acceptable to cross breed these two types?

Depends on who you ask, but generally, yes.

> Will it lead to a
>  weakened coloration of the regular type of Rams in the fry?

Depending on the dominance issues of the color genes the first generation 
will be either all blue or all gold.  I would suspect all blue.  Breeding of 
siblings should give a 75/25 ratio.
  
>  I hate to have to bag the Gold Ram up and take it back to the store if I
>  don't have too. Please advise.

Considering that 99% of the gold rams in the LFSs are from Asia, you can bet 
it is a male.  The best way to succeed in breeding the golds is by crossing 
with a wild form (blue), and then breeding back to get the gold.  Do as you 
like.  If someone has a problem with it, tell him/her where to get off.  They 
are the same species, and the gold has no wild population purity to protect.

Bob Dixon


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com.
For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
email apisto-request@listbox.com.
Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!


Typical M. Ramirezi & Gold Ram

by "Newman, L" <Lee_Newman/bc.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999
To: apisto/admin.listbox.com

S. Bunch wrote:

> One of them was sick when I got it home (the gold one that I hadn't wanted
> to begin with). I medicated for gill parasites, which is the only diagnosis
> I could find for the hard breathing and swollen gills they were showing. It
> didn't seem to be helping though. I thought maybe I was contributing to it,
> so I checked my water quality. Ammonia, Nitrates, Nitrites all at "0". PH
> 6.8, Total hardness <10.

Hi Sherry,

I have found that both the domestic, or farmed, varieties as well as
wild fish tend to show some kind of respiratory stress (evidenced by the
hard breathing you mention) when first brought into a store or
wholesaler. I have used Paragon, by Aquatronics, with great success. The
only side-effect is that the rams develop a lymphocystis-like condition,
likely in response to the active ingredient in the Paragon. However,
after a several of weeks of regular water changes (50% every week) the
lymphocystis-like growths disappear and the rams seem perfectly healthy
from then on.

Hope this helps and good luck with them, there're worth the work.

Lee


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com.
For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
email apisto-request@listbox.com.
Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!


Ictio, help!

by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999
To: apisto/admin.listbox.com



"Jones, Erick" wrote:

> Mike
> Its been my personal observation that rams seem terribly "delicate" most of
> the time. Would that be because I'm keeping them at temp's to far below what
> they prefer? I usually run my tanks around 76-80 f. And since I'm
> considering trying them again what would be a good temp for them? Thanks

Erik,

Rams are a fish that inhabits savanna pools in the wild. Since there is so little
shade, the water often reaches into the mid-90ºF (mid-30ºC) temperature range.
Like discus they prefer their water warm. I would never keep them below 85ºF
(30ºC) for any length of time if I could help it.

>  As far as the Ich goes I long ago gave up medicating it. I found that
> raising the temp doing daily water changes and cutting off all light to the
> tank for a week clears it faster and more effectively than anything else
> I've come across. Plus I don't have any problems with the more medication
> sensitive species.

This isn't a bad way as long as the fish can handle higher temperatures. The
temperature ideally should be above 85ºF (30ºC), with frequent water changes, and
increased aeration. If your fish can't handle high temperatures (e.g. goldfish,
madtoms, etc.) then you are going to have to medicate them. I have heard of some
success using a diatom filter running continuously for a week. The theory is that
the Ich parasite is strained out of the water faster than it can infect any fish.

Mike Wise

>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com.
> For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
> email apisto-request@listbox.com.
> Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!






How 'bout that!

by "Jose J.V. Carvalho" <zeco/bbci.com.br>
Date: Thu, 4 May 2000
To: <apisto/majordomo.pobox.com>

This thread appeared in Kullander's Cichlid Systematics Discussion List last year, when he wrote the following response:

"My search for the earliest publication of a generic name for the ramirezi eventually took me to a Danish aquarium book in which there is a description by Meulengracht-Madsen that precisely fulfils the requirements for availability of Mikrogeophagus. There are several other publications in the 1960s which mention "Microgeophagus", but those that I have examined all fail one or more of the requirements for availability. I would not be surprised if some earlier "description" would be found, could be in a local Singapore aquarium journal as well as in an Icelandic aquarium book; but that should not keep us from using Mikrogeophagus now, it is the "best" we have.

The correct citation is:

Mikrogeophagus Meulengracht-Madsen, 1968 in Schiötz & Christensen, Jeg har Akvarium, p. 370 (type by monotypy Apistogramma ramirezi Myers & Harry).

Sven O Kullander"

Zeco


unusual behavior

by BigJohnW/webtv.net (John Wubbolt)
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

To add to this line of comments, I've found that my German Blue Rams
gave me some interesting behavior for dwarf Cichlids.   

With each spawn the male would coax the female to a certain spot in the
tank to spawn and after spawning would chase the female away.   He
wouldn't let her near the eggs at all. He did all the work fanning the
eggs, moving the fry after the hatched to a different spot and then
guarding the batch of fry once they become free swimming.   Only once
did he allow the female anywhere near the fry once they became free
swimming.   Weird part is each time after the fry were free swimming for
about 4 days he would devour the whole group of them.   I got to the
point where I would let him fan the eggs, move the wigglers to a secure
spot then 2 days after the fry were up and swimming I would have to
remove him along with the female to get some fry to be able to grow out.
Anyone else have this problem with their Rams.    

John




Rams trio

by "Stepanova, Lilia" <Lilia.Stepanova/stjude.org>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000
To: "'apisto/majordomo.pobox.com'" <apisto/majordomo.pobox.com>

Hi guys,
Yesterday I saw an unusual thing in my rams tank. My gold rams decided to
spawn, and one female spawned with two males at the same time. I mean, she
was seeding the eggs on the slate, and two males were following her
fertilizing the eggs. After that both males and female took turns defending
them from other rams in the tank. Have anyone seen this kind of behavior in
rams? I was breeding them for some time, and this is the first time I saw
it. They are in 10g, 5 males, 4 females until recently (one died yesterday).
(it is more of males, of course, but before, even then I had 10 males to 1
female, the spawning have always been on the 1 to 1 basis.) 

Best,

Lilia 




-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com.
For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
email apisto-request@listbox.com.
Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!


biotope

by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000
To: apisto/listbox.com

The best article on biotopes of the Orinoco Ram that I've seen is Dr. Wolfang
Staeck's 1993 article on their distribution & ecology: Staeck, W. 1993. Zur
Verbreitung und Ökologie von Papiliochromis ramirezi. DATZ, 46(4): 239-242. From
1986 to 1991 Staeck wrote a series of articles for DATZ that described the
biotopes of many of the Apistogramma species that he collected in Peru &
Venezuela. The articles that I've read were exceptionally detailed and well worth
reading. I have translated some of these and they are available through the ASG
library for ASG members. Dr. Sven O. Kullander also describes different dwarf
cichlid biotopes in Ingo Koslowski's book, Die Buntbarsche der Neuen Welt -
Zwergcichliden. Unfortunately for those who don't read German, the book is
written in German (I have translated this book, too.). Römer's Cichliden Atlas
v.1 has a lot of biotope data, too - especially on the upper Rio Negro. Again,
it's only available in German right now.

In English, Kullander describes Peruvian aquatic biotopes in detail in his book,
Cichlid Fishes of the Amazon River Drainage of Peru, available from the Swedish
Museum of Natural History. It may be a bit technical for anyone not familiar with
biological & ecological terms. Many of the more recent scientific descriptions
also include a brief description of the collecting site. Otherwise, some of the
old TFH "bring 'em back alive" articles from the 60s, 70s & 80s, and the Linke &
Staeck and Mayland & Bork books are about all that you have available.

Mike Wise

"F. Tadeo" wrote:

> does anyone know where i can look up natural habitats/biotopes for apistos
> and other dwarf cichlids.  i'm tryin to find info on d. filamentosus, rams,
> and apistos so i could try to set up tanks similar to their habitats.
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> http://profiles.msn.com.
>






Up to Apistogramma/Dwarf Cichlids <- The Krib
This page was last updated 17 February 2002