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Pelvicachromis "sacrimontis"

Contents:

  1. P. sacrimontis
    by Randy or Deb Carey <carey/spacestar.net> (Thu, 15 Jan 1998)
  2. Re:Pelvicachromis sacrimontis
    by rytireefs/juno.com (Phillip J Ryti) (Tue, 10 Feb 1998)
  3. Pelvicachromis sacrimontis
    by Steven White <sawhite/bicnet.net> (Thu, 12 Feb 1998)
  4. Pelvicachromis sacrimontis
    by Randy or Deb Carey <carey/spacestar.net> (Thu, 12 Feb 1998)
  5. Pelvicachromis sacrimontis- again
    by Frauley/Elson <fraulels/minet.ca> (Fri, 27 Mar 1998)
  6. Pelvicachromis scarimontis
    by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com> (Tue, 27 Oct 1998)
  7. Pv. taeniatus Matadi or Pv. subocellatus Matadi black?
    by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com> (Mon, 22 Feb 1999)
  8. Sacrimontis or pulcher ?
    by Frauley Elson <fraulels/minet.ca> (Mon, 31 Jul 2000)
  9. Sacrimontis or pulcher ?
    by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com> (Mon, 31 Jul 2000)
  10. Sacrimontis or pulcher ?
    by Frauley Elson <fraulels/minet.ca> (Mon, 31 Jul 2000)

P. sacrimontis

by Randy or Deb Carey <carey/spacestar.net>
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

Fredrik.Ljungberg-at-saab.se wrote:

> Randy,
>
> is Pelvicachromis sacrimontis now an official name for the species
> L&S lists as P. sp. aff pulcher? They write that Thys has stated
> his intentions to describe the species but at the time of writing
> it hadn't been done (back in 1994 for the english edition, if
> memory serves). I'm sending this to the list in case anyone else
> cares or knows.
>
> //Fredrik

I conducted a search on some databases via the internet, but could not find
"sacrimontis."  The fact that I came up empty doesn't mean it wasn't described,
just that I didn't find it.  My importer who got these for me is friends with
Linke, and it was the importer who applied the name.  But we never discussed the
situation with the description.

 I'd say the name situation is like "brietbinden" or "pandurini."  While no one
had yet described them, we hobbyists used the names as if they were the official
names.

In any case, the fish that were once called "P. camerunensis" and what I have as
"P. sacrimontis" are the fish discussed and pictured in Linke as "Pelvicachromis
sp. aff. pulcher."  But I, too, would be interested to hear any confirmation or
correction on the naming of this species.

--Randy


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Re:Pelvicachromis sacrimontis

by rytireefs/juno.com (Phillip J Ryti)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com


Randy wrote:
I've got fry from some of the African imports: Pelvicachromis 
sacrimontis,

I still have the old German version of Linke and Staeck. Randy, can 
you
bring me up to speed. What is a Pelv. sacrimontis? Thanks
- Steve Waldron

Pelvicachromis sacrimontis, was formerly known as 
Pelvicachromis sp. aff. pulcher in the Linke and Staeke book.
Now it is referred to as Pelvicachromis sacrimontis in
the Cichlid Aquarium by Paul Louseile, Tetra Books.
However, this name is not yet widely accepted to my 
knowledge.

Phillip Ryti


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Pelvicachromis sacrimontis

by Steven White <sawhite/bicnet.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

WndrKdnomo-at-aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 2/10/98 6:35:14 AM, rytireefs-at-juno.com wrote:
> 
> <<Pelvicachromis sacrimontis, was formerly known as
> Pelvicachromis sp. aff. pulcher in the Linke and Staeke book.
> Now it is referred to as Pelvicachromis sacrimontis >>
> 
> I recently have seen a fish labeled "Yellow Kribensis". Does anyone know
> anything about this fish, and could it be the same as P. sacrimontis?
> As far as I remember, they looked very simular to regular P.pulcher,  except
> for a yellow patch behind the gills.
> Jeff
> WndrKdnomo-at-aol.com
> 
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Pelvicachromis sacrimontis, a.k.a. sp. aff. pulcher (or the "Giant Krib"
to other old geezers like me out there), does have differing color
"morphs"  and a lemon yellow color rather than the strong red does
appear in some specimens. Some localities of the true pulcher have
yellow on the fins and the forward body, but I haven't seen it as
strongly colored as in sacrimontis.

Going way back, again - sorry, the undescribed Nigerian species,
Pelvicachromis sp. aff. subocellatus, sometimes sold as "subocellatus
Lagos", was referred to as the "Yellow Krib", but the recent list that I
saw which included "Yellow Kribensis" was from someone who is familiar
with these Nigerian forms.
								
										Steve


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Pelvicachromis sacrimontis

by Randy or Deb Carey <carey/spacestar.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

According to Linke/Staeck, sacrimontis is distinguishable from pulcher by the
irridescent blue about the eyes and the gills, and this feature is observed early
in the fishes life.  Please refer to the text and photos of this book.

--Randy



WndrKdnomo-at-aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 2/10/98 6:35:14 AM, rytireefs-at-juno.com wrote:
>
> <<Pelvicachromis sacrimontis, was formerly known as
> Pelvicachromis sp. aff. pulcher in the Linke and Staeke book.
> Now it is referred to as Pelvicachromis sacrimontis >>
>
> I recently have seen a fish labeled "Yellow Kribensis". Does anyone know
> anything about this fish, and could it be the same as P. sacrimontis?
> As far as I remember, they looked very simular to regular P.pulcher,  except
> for a yellow patch behind the gills.
> Jeff




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Pelvicachromis sacrimontis- again

by Frauley/Elson <fraulels/minet.ca>
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

Steven J. Waldron wrote:
> 
> Hi folks,
> Recently came across some beautiful but bedraggled wild P. sacrimontis. I
> have 2 males and a female. Appreciate any suggestions with these, I've done
> well with P. taeniatus and P. subocellatus. Curious to know how P.
> sacrimontis' care might differ from aforementioned? Plans to put a pair
> with dithers in a 24" long 20 gal- is this sufficient? Any help with these
> purple beauties would be much obliged....
> - Steve
Hi Steve,
I never spawned mine, as they never got along for long enough to
reproduce. I found them aggressive. Behavior-wise, they reminded me more
of P. humilis than taenies, pulcher or subocellatus. I've never kept
wild kribs, but my two pairs of purples were brawlers in all possible
combinations. My feeling was my 36 inch tanks were small for them, but
since my pairs were wild from the same location (Cross River), maybe not
all purples are like that.
Good luck with them.
-Gary


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Pelvicachromis scarimontis

by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

Jeff,

These are parts of two replies I got from CICHLID-L. I was hoping for more
response but I guess these two messages must say it all, since I haven't received
anything else on the subject.

My question to CICHLID-L:
"Can anyone comment of the validity of the name Pelvicachromis
sacrimontis. This name has been floating around the aquarium hobby more
and more recently in reference to the Giant Krib, Pv. sp. aff. pulcher.
I believe this is due to the fact that the English edition of Linke &
Staeck's book, Afrikanische Cichliden I - Buntbarsche aus Westafrika,
has put this name in the hands of more average hobbyists.

It is my understanding that Thys van den Audenaerde had a paper on its
description ready for publication 20 years ago, but for some reason it
hasn't been published yet. Many refer to Linke & Staeck's book as a
reason for using Pv. sacrimontis. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

best wishes,

Mike Wise

responses:

"Anyway, out of curiosity, I looked up the listed name and came up with the
following.

Pelvicachromis sacramontis  Paulo, 1977 and the name appeared in the DCG
Informationen 8(9) p.161 as far as I can determine and is considered as
nomen triviale.

Just checked in CLOFFA 4 and came up with, under Pelvicachromis pulcher

Pelvicachromis sacramontis Paulo, 1977 161; an unjustified substitute for P.
camerunensis Paulo, 1968 the types of which came from Nigeria and not from
Cameroon.

Full ref is;
                     Paulo,J. 1977.  Anmerkungen zur Gattung Pelvicachromis,
speziell zur Berechtigung des Taxons Pelvicachromis kribensis (Boulenger, 1911)
DCG Info 8(9); pp.161-168."

and

"About P. sacrimontis it seems that the description has never been published
so the name is not valid. It could be useful to call the fish P. aff. pulcher or
P. "sacrimontis"."

Linke & Staeck first published this information in their 1981 first edition book
(in German only, although you could get an English translation from the ACA). Now
that more people have access to it via the English edition, more people are using
it as a valid scientific name. Thys van den Audenaerde still hasn't published the
work. The only reason I can think that anyone would consider Pv. sacrimontis a
valid name is that the name was published by Linke & Staeck with sufficient
information for it to be considered a scientific description. This would be sort
of like what happened to the genus Microgeophagus in Axelrod's Breeding Aquarium
Fishes. At least Axelrod referred to the type material of Meyers & Harry's
original description of Apistogramma ramirezi. Linke & Staeck couldn't do this for
Pv. sacrimontis since there is no type specimens of it listed anywhere. Until
someone comments on this name in a scientific journal, like they did with
Microgeophagus, I guess the scientific community will not recognize the name as
valid.

Mike Wise

WndrKdnomo@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 10/26/98 3:32:17 PM, apistowise@bewellnet.com writes:
>
> <<I submitted the question of  on the validity of the name Pelvicachromis
> sacrimontis to the scientific community on the CICHLID-L mail list. From the
> responses I got it is presently considered nomen triviale (a common name) and
> is
> properly called by its previous common names Pv. sp. aff. pulcher or Giant
> Krib.(Sorry I didn't get back to you before this.)>>
>
> There was a previous thread on this species, and I got the impression that the
> name sacrimontis had been published.  Link and Staek mention, under the
> listing P.sp. aff. pulcher, that a Prof. Thys was in the process of publishing
> the description of the species as P. sacrimontis,  and that book was published
> in 1994.  Has the description still not been published, or has it been
> published but not widely accepted?  Just curious.
> Jeff Lehman
>
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Pv. taeniatus Matadi or Pv. subocellatus Matadi black?

by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999
To: apisto/pudge.listbox.com

Tsuh Yang,

Pv. subocellatus is easy to tell from the Pv. taeniatus species-group by just
looking at their body shapes. Pv. subocellatus has a shorter, deeper, body than a
similarly sized Pv. taeniatus/callipterus/kribensis.  Male Pv. subocellatus also
have pale "spots" in the upper lobe of the caudal fin. Male Pv.
taeniatus/callipterus/kribensis possess dark, usually haloed, spots in the upper
caudal lobe.

I've seen this name on the lists, too and am curious whether it's misnamed or a
new taeniatus-group species from near Matadi, a city near the mouth of the Congo
River.

One of the fish you listed was the Giant Krib, Pv. sacrimontis/Pv. sp. aff.
pulcher. After corresponding with Dr. Loiselle, I now accept his view that Pv.
sacrimontis is a valid name under the provisions of the ICZN. I would encourage
anyone who can get this Krib to try and breed it. It's biotope is being threatened
in Nigeria. It requires streams with a canopy rain forest, which is rapidly
disappearing in its native habitat. For breeders to get 50/50 sex ratios, this
fish needs to be spawned at pH values below 6.

Mike Wise

Piabinha@aol.com wrote:

> hi yall,
>
> i was at a wholesaler yesterday and went home with a pair of a fish i thought
> was P. sub. Matadi black.  when i got home, however, i checked their list and
> i saw taht they also have a fish named P. taeniatus Matadi.  now i'm wondering
> what i have.  what are ways to distinguish these 2 varieties?
>
> oh yeah, in addition to over a dozen different taeniatus, they had roloffi,
> humilis, aff. pulcher, a couple of Hemichromis and such rarities as
> Gobiocichla wonderi and Schwetzochromis.
>
> tsuh yang chen, nyc
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@majordomo.pobox.com.
> For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help,
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Sacrimontis or pulcher ?

by Frauley Elson <fraulels/minet.ca>
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

My gut feeling on 'sacrimontis' (not an officially described species) is that
it's very much a 'distribution species'. It's very similar to pulcher, but you
have to know where it's from to know if it is what it is (if that makes sense to
anyone but me).
I've seen tanks of wild 'sacromontis' from the Cross River system with fairly
distinct colour forms all mixed together, right beside wild pulcher from
elsewhere, and except for dominant males, it was a hard call. It would have been
necessary to take them home to let them colour up.
This doesn't anser your question, as I never kept them together to see if they'd
cross. I guess all I'm doing is saying you've got a good question...

-Gary
Simon Voorwinde wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I've got a few questions so I'll just list them;
>
> 1. Will sacrimontis hybridise with pulcher ? The reason I ask is that I have
> a beautiful male pulcher that I had spent a long time searching for a nice
> female for. I finally found one and placed them together and so far
> nothing - not even the slightest display by the female and they have been
> together about 2 months. I bought her in a shop that was full of nice big
> males that I thought looked rather nice. Some had tail spots others didn't.
> I bought a nice male for a friend that had one tail spot, no dorsal spots,
> but a broad black patch on his dorsal. I put the new big male in with my
> pair to settle down before my friend picked it up in a day or two and the
> instant I let him free the female I originally had turned almost black,
> coloured up and began arching and quivering in front of the new male. Of
> course the two males began to fight requiring separation.  Do you think I
> could have bought a sacrimontis by mistake and does this explain why the
> original pair didn't begin to spawn ?
>
> 2. A book I have has a pic of Pelvicachromis cf. pulcher that has lots more
> red than a pulcher, is bigger and is stated to be more robust and vigorous.
> I this the same as P. sacrimontis ?
>
> 3. The book also says that there is two distinct forms of cf. pulcher - one
> that is covered with red from the mouth to the anal fin and another which
> has red colouring similar to P. pulcher. The new male I have has a red strip
> about 3mm long along the edge of the bottom jaw. Question is how do you tell
> male and female P. sacrimontis from P. pulcher ?
>
> I have pics of both if that will help.
>
> TIA
>
> Simon Voorwinde
> http://thecichlidtank.cjb.net
>




Sacrimontis or pulcher ?

by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

Simon,

Here's my 2ยข worth. I agree with Gary. I believe Pv. sacrimontis is still an
invalid name and probably now nomen nudem, since Linke & Staeck published the
name in their book without any scientific description. Dr. Loiselle considers it
valid by their reference to an unpublished paper by Thys (Pv. sacrimontis Thys in
Linke & Staeck 1981). This, I feel is pushing a scientific name beyond the limit.
A lot of this, I am sure, is due to Loselle's loyalty to Thys, his old mentor.
For now I call it Pv. sp. aff. pulcher, the Giant Krib.

Contrary to Gary, I believe that the Giant Krib is a species separate from the
Common Krib, Pv. pulcher. The Giant Krib is a soft water upland species. The
Common Krib is more generally distributed throughout the Niger delta. The Giant
Krib can grow to 6"/15cm while the Common Krib rarely exceeds 4"/10cm. The two
species can be separated by color on the tail and gill cover. The Giant Krib will
always show a turquoise stripe below the eye and on the gill cover. The males
have a turquoise band that borders the outer red band on the upper lobe of the
tail fin. None of the many color forms of the Common Krib show this turquoise
color on the face or tail.

I have never heard of any interbreeding but I imagine it is possible if the fish
are given no choice. Kribs are notoriously slow to pair off. I've had Common
Kribs take 6 months or more before the urge to breed started. Then again, I've
had Common Kribs breed within a few weeks. The fish are all individuals in this
respect.

Check your female & new male for the turquoise on the gill & tail. If it is
there, you have a wonderful fish that needs to be bred in captivity. The rain
forest of its home waters is rapidly being cut down for agricultural land. The
Giant Krib is now in danger of disappearing in the wild due to habitat loss. The
Giant Krib will breed in water similar to the Common Krib, but sex ratios tend to
be skewed radically. It is best to breed this fish in moderately soft water at a
pH around 6.3 to insure roughly equal numbers of male & females. Hope this helps.

Mike Wise

Simon Voorwinde wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I've got a few questions so I'll just list them;
>
> 1. Will sacrimontis hybridise with pulcher ? The reason I ask is that I have
> a beautiful male pulcher that I had spent a long time searching for a nice
> female for. I finally found one and placed them together and so far
> nothing - not even the slightest display by the female and they have been
> together about 2 months. I bought her in a shop that was full of nice big
> males that I thought looked rather nice. Some had tail spots others didn't.
> I bought a nice male for a friend that had one tail spot, no dorsal spots,
> but a broad black patch on his dorsal. I put the new big male in with my
> pair to settle down before my friend picked it up in a day or two and the
> instant I let him free the female I originally had turned almost black,
> coloured up and began arching and quivering in front of the new male. Of
> course the two males began to fight requiring separation.  Do you think I
> could have bought a sacrimontis by mistake and does this explain why the
> original pair didn't begin to spawn ?
>
> 2. A book I have has a pic of Pelvicachromis cf. pulcher that has lots more
> red than a pulcher, is bigger and is stated to be more robust and vigorous.
> I this the same as P. sacrimontis ?
>
> 3. The book also says that there is two distinct forms of cf. pulcher - one
> that is covered with red from the mouth to the anal fin and another which
> has red colouring similar to P. pulcher. The new male I have has a red strip
> about 3mm long along the edge of the bottom jaw. Question is how do you tell
> male and female P. sacrimontis from P. pulcher ?
>
> I have pics of both if that will help.
>
> TIA
>
> Simon Voorwinde
> http://thecichlidtank.cjb.net
>




Sacrimontis or pulcher ?

by Frauley Elson <fraulels/minet.ca>
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

Hi,
Whoops, the old lack of clarity in e-mail strikes again!
I agree they are probably different species, but wanted to make the point range of
distribution was important for determination. I see how I muddled it, by saying the
pulcher were right beside the 'sacrimontis', but not specifying in a different tank
from a different shipment...
They can be hard to recognize when stressed, and there are two very differently
coloured 'sacrimontis' from the Cross River area, sharing the cheek striping but not
the colour intensity. I've never had the big tank I'd need to throw them together and
see what happened with these colours over the long run.
Fully adult and in a good set -up, they are very different fish. from the common
krib.
I think it's one of those many species where you have a long geographic range, with
the fish at the two ends being classified as different species, but with the dividing
line hard to find in the middle. It's something I find very difficult with killie
species definitions. I haven't heard as much about this question with Apistos as I
have with West African fish.
-Gary

Mike & Diane Wise wrote:

> I have never heard of any interbreeding but I imagine it is possible if the fish
> are given no choice.




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