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Apisto Fry and Parents... when and if to remove

Contents:

  1. nijsseni pediatrics
    by lisa wrischnik <wrisch/mendel.Berkeley.EDU> (Tue, 17 Sep 1996)
  2. raising fry
    by lisa wrischnik <wrisch/mendel.Berkeley.EDU> (Wed, 18 Sep 1996)
  3. raising fry
    by Pete Johnson <petej/wordsanddeeds.com> (Mon, 24 Feb 97)
  4. Apisto Pediatrics
    by Erik Olson (e-mail) (Mon, 16 Sep 1996)
  5. raising fry
    by SanfordD/liberty.issaquah.wednet.edu (Sanford, Dave LHS-STAFF) (Mon, 24 Feb 1997)
  6. artificial hatching
    by "Ed Pon" <edpon/hotmail.com> (Sun, 22 Jun 1997)
  7. artificial hatching
    by Ken Laidlaw <kl/jach.hawaii.edu> (Mon, 23 Jun 1997)
  8. artificial hatching
    by henshawm/ruf.rice.edu (Mike Henshaw) (Tue, 24 Jun 1997)
  9. RE: artificial hatching
    by Tom Mroz <tmroz/art-inc.com> (Mon, 23 Jun 1997)
  10. RE: artificial hatching
    by Ken Laidlaw <kl/jach.hawaii.edu> (Mon, 23 Jun 1997)
  11. Fwd: factors relating to growth
    by "Ed Pon" <edpon/hotmail.com> (Mon, 29 Sep 1997)
  12. repeat offenders of domestic violence?!?!?
    by Steven Hutchins <hutchins.33/osu.edu> (Tue, 09 Dec 1997)
  13. repeat offenders of domestic violence?!?!?
    by wrisch/uclink4.berkeley.edu (Lisa Wrischnik) (Tue, 9 Dec 1997)
  14. Cacatuoides chasing neons
    by wrisch/uclink4.berkeley.edu (Lisa Wrischnik) (Tue, 16 Dec 1997)
  15. Cacatuoides chasing neons
    by "Darren J. Hanson" <djhanson/calweb.com> (Tue, 16 Dec 1997)
  16. Bad mom!
    by IDMiamiBob/aol.com (Sat, 22 Nov 1997)
  17. Incomplete tank divider method -Reply
    by "Kathryn Olson" <Kathryn.Olson/vmmc.org> (Fri, 20 Feb 1998)
  18. BREEDING A. AGASSIZI
    by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com> (Sun, 05 Jul 1998)
  19. A.nijsseni spawn
    by Ken Laidlaw <K.Laidlaw/roe.ac.uk> (Wed, 8 Jul 1998)
  20. Fwd: Re: small fish
    by <kathy/thekrib.com> (Sun, 20 Sep 1998)
  21. small fish
    by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com> (Sun, 20 Sep 1998)
  22. Parental behavior
    by "Maladorno, Dionigi {DRUG~Nutley}" <DIONIGI.MALADORNO/roche.com> (Thu, 05 Nov 1998)
  23. Rams
    by Ken Laidlaw <K.Laidlaw/roe.ac.uk> (Mon, 2 Nov 1998)
  24. Rams de-selection
    by "Helen Burns" <hlnburns/thefree.net> (Tue, 3 Nov 1998)
  25. Rams de-selection
    by Mike Jacobs <mfjacobs/geocities.com> (Wed, 04 Nov 1998)
  26. Rams de-selection
    by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com> (Tue, 03 Nov 1998)
  27. rogue's gallery
    by Frauley/Elson <fraulels/minet.ca> (Sun, 22 Nov 1998)
  28. rogue's gallery
    by IDMiamiBob/aol.com (Sun, 22 Nov 1998)
  29. Artificially hatching Ram Eggs
    by "Helen Burns" <hlnburns/thefree.net> (Sat, 23 Jan 1999)
  30. Artificially hatching Ram Eggs
    by BigJohnW/webtv.net (John Wubbolt) (Sat, 23 Jan 1999)
  31. raising cichlids without their parents
    by Frauley/Elson <fraulels/minet.ca> (Sat, 23 Jan 1999)
  32. artificially hatching ram eggs
    by "D Kinyon" <dkinyon/shentel.net> (Sat, 23 Jan 1999)
  33. raising cichlids without their parents
    by IDMiamiBob/aol.com (Sun, 24 Jan 1999)
  34. raising cichlids without their parents
    by Fi205sh/aol.com (Sun, 24 Jan 1999)
  35. A. Cruzi spawn? or not?
    by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com> (Tue, 06 Apr 1999)
  36. attention Erik
    by "Carol L. Farmer" <clh/tennis.org> (Thu, 25 Mar 1999)
  37. 3.5 and 10 gal raising A. caca
    by BigJohnW/webtv.net (John Wubbolt) (Sun, 28 Feb 1999)
  38. N.tansvestitus
    by Frauley/Elson <fraulels/minet.ca> (Fri, 17 Dec 1999)
  39. RE: spawning?
    by BigJohnW/webtv.net (John Wubbolt) (Fri, 13 Aug 1999)
  40. spawning?
    by Fredrik.Ljungberg/saab.se (Fri, 13 Aug 1999)
  41. spawning?
    by BigJohnW/webtv.net (John Wubbolt) (Fri, 13 Aug 1999)
  42. spawning?
    by BigJohnW/webtv.net (John Wubbolt) (Fri, 13 Aug 1999)
  43. spawning?
    by "Helen Burns" <helen.burns/bigwig.net> (Fri, 13 Aug 1999)
  44. spawning?
    by Frauley/Elson <fraulels/minet.ca> (Fri, 13 Aug 1999)
  45. spawning?
    by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com> (Fri, 13 Aug 1999)
  46. RE: unusual behaviour
    by Scot Gillespie <Scot.Gillespie/epsedin.co.uk> (Tue, 11 Jan 2000)
  47. RE: unusual behaviour
    by Scot Gillespie <Scot.Gillespie/epsedin.co.uk> (Tue, 11 Jan 2000)
  48. unusual behaviour-Nijsseni, Regani
    by "Helen Burns" <helen.burns/bigwig.net> (Tue, 11 Jan 2000)
  49. RE: unusual behaviour-Nijsseni, Regani (off-line)
    by Scot Gillespie <Scot.Gillespie/epsedin.co.uk> (Tue, 11 Jan 2000)
  50. unusual behaviour
    by Frauley/Elson <fraulels/minet.ca> (Tue, 11 Jan 2000)

nijsseni pediatrics

by lisa wrischnik <wrisch/mendel.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996
To: apisto/aquaria.net


I've raised fry from A. "rotpunkt", steindachneri, and macmasteri, and
also a little spawn of nijsseni, and by far the nijsseni were the
fastest growing. The nijsseni were in the largest, most heavily
planted tank as well, so maybe they had better luck foraging.

So far, I have always left the fry with the parents, but I have
lost several borelli spawns because of this. I guess I like watching
the parent(s) take care  of the little ones.

Lisa


raising fry

by lisa wrischnik <wrisch/mendel.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996
To: apisto/aquaria.net


Hi all (and Ken in particular),

Ken L. asked me if I usually left apisto eggs/fry with both sets of 
parents, and the answer is yes (so far).  My steindachneri and
rotpunkt bred in small species tanks with dither/target fish included.
The rotpunkt male was a really good dad-he was yellowish to start 
with, but after the fry became free swimming he turned almost as 
yellow as she was and took his turn escorting the fry around the tank.

Mr. steindachneri could not have cared less.

My macmasteri bred in a 20 gal mixed species tank, and the male just
stayed away from the female for the most part.

The nijsseni were a great pair-they were in a 40 gal with a number of 
other fish (Biotodoma sp., Dicrossus, splashing tetras, pencil fish).  I 
started with 2 males and 2 females and waited to see who would pair up.  
Once the  dominant male picked his gal I removed the other nijsseni 
(not quickly enough in one case).  The female guarded the fry, while the 
male would keep all the other fish out of the 3/4 of the tank that they 
decided was theirs.  He would come over and display to the female now 
and then, but no fighting.

My borelli spawned twice, and both times the female just stopped caring 
for the fry-maybe this was an example of how the presence of the male 
stressed the female?  I have heard of a number of cases where, after 
spawning, all hell would break loose, so I try to keep an eye on things 
and to be prepared to move fish if necessary (and if I hav'nt filled up that 
spare tank already with something else-no self control).

I also tend to give the females a few tries at raising her eggs/fry.  Most 
seem to improve over time.  Do people have good success rates hatching
out eggs themselves?

Advice is always appreciated!!

Lisa


raising fry

by Pete Johnson <petej/wordsanddeeds.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 97
To: "apisto" <apisto/aquaria.net>

I generally leave fry with parents, at least for the first month, and 
have had great luck with a number of Apisto, Nannacara and Laeatacara 
species, with one notable exception: Apistogramma hippolytae. I've had a 
number of spawnings but the parents do not take care of the eggs, and I 
get no viable fry. This has happened with two different pairs. The next 
time I spot eggs, I'm going to try to raise them myself.

When I do separate the fry, I put them in a container with lots of 
floating plants -- duckweed, salvinia and frogbit -- along with java 
moss. I mostly use containers floating in larger tanks, with a small 
current of water added by a low-volume water pump or output from a Tetra 
sponge filter (perforated ends covered with fine fishnet keep the 
container from overflowing and styrofoam blocks keep the it afloat -- 
it's a design I borrowed from Justin Hau of San Francico's Ocean 
Aquarium). I feed a combination of LiquiFry, Tetra powdered fry food and 
baby brine shrimp. I think the smallest babies snack on the infusoria 
living in the floating plants.

I had problems raising L. dorsiger fry with their parents, but I think 
those fry starved to death because the tank lacked sufficient infusoria 
and they're *very* small. When I started raising them in containers with 
lots of floating plants they flourished.

Incidentally, I'm currently watching a female A. nijsseni shepherding 
about 20 fry around her tank -- I'm very pleased to see this fish 
spawning. I credit the Waters of the World Amazon formula for helping 
this to happen -- I've been working with nijsseni for months without much 
luck.


Pete Johnson     ||     Two approaches to the same problem:
San Jose, CA     ||     flying fish and penguins.



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Apisto Pediatrics

by Erik Olson (e-mail)
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996
To: Ray Cone <mcone/concentric.net>

Ray writes:
....
> With that in mind, are Apisto's generally good parents or should
> I prepare myself for egg snatching early on?

Folks take differing tacks on this... For instance, Local Dave (who got
the pandarini/panderini/pandarini? pair I brought up from TX) prefers to
remove both parents (or at least the dad) pretty soon after spawning.  On
the other hand, Dave Soares (a different Dave) told us he never removes
the parents except for a couple of species.  I currently have two spawns
of A. "rotpunkt" (or maybe catei or eunotus; still don't know... it's a
Apistogramma mac-mystery) in which I left the FATHER in with the young,
which are probably still small enough for him to eat.  They're doing
great.  I'm bouncing this to the apisto group, because I'm sure others
have varying stories!

>  Are the fry on the large
> side and, if so, can they eat BBS or am I better off going the infusoria
> route?  

We've also raised A. cacatuoides.  Both were big enough to quickly begin
on naplii, though it's recommended you have java moss or other places for
infusoria to collect.  Though it's been 3-4 months, the cacatuoides still
only eat naplii (occasionally they wrestle with smaller daphnia... it's
funny to watch).  On the other hand, the rotpunkt are already eating flake
food & they're less than 2 months old.  So it varies.  I'm guessing
pandarinis & nijsseni are slow-growers.

Scary.  Me, giving apisto advice. :)

  - Erik

---
Erik D. Olson					         amazingly, at home
(e-mail)



raising fry

by SanfordD/liberty.issaquah.wednet.edu (Sanford, Dave LHS-STAFF)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997
To: apisto/aquaria.net

Hi all, this is in response to Simon's note about raising fry.
I have found that they grow faster and have fewer losses if allowed
to remain with the female for 3-4 weeks. I feed microworms and a
lot of baby brine shrimp, occasionally some finely powered flake.
If I use a 5 gal tank for spawning, then i remove the male when the
fry are free swimming, or he sometimes gets killed. In a 10 gal or
larger he seems to do ok, as long as he stays away from the fry.
The 15 L container with just an airstone, I think an established 
sponge filter, even a small one will make a lot of difference. I've
never had very much success in anything without filtration due to
ammonia build up, but I'm sure that I over feed.


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artificial hatching

by "Ed Pon" <edpon/hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

I generally try to guess when to find apistogramma eggs and then steal 
them from the parents and hatch and raise them myself if it's an apisto 
that I really want and do not want to chance the parents eating the 
eggs.  I usually find eggs around the time of a full moon, give or take 
5 days.  I have tried different chemicals and methods and am wondering 
what methods others have tried.


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artificial hatching

by Ken Laidlaw <kl/jach.hawaii.edu>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

Hi All,

I believe that aquarists should do all they can to allow the parents to
raise their fry themselves.  I remember reading somewhere that parental
behaviour is in part learned not just instinct, in the future no-one may
have the pleasure of watching a female apisto raise her young.

Also I have only ever had success if I remove the male.  He seems to
stress the female too much and she ends up eating the eggs.

Sorrow is this sounds too high brow but it is just my humble opinion.

Cheers,
Ken.  

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artificial hatching

by henshawm/ruf.rice.edu (Mike Henshaw)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

>I believe that aquarists should do all they can to allow the parents to
>raise their fry themselves.  I remember reading somewhere that parental
>behaviour is in part learned not just instinct, in the future no-one may
>have the pleasure of watching a female apisto raise her young.

While I agree that it is best to allow the parents to raise the fry
themselves, I don't think that removing the parents will lead to a future
in which Apisto's don't know how to raise offspring.  I don't doubt that
parenting is learned to some extent (it is in many species of animals). 
What learned means however is that the fish have a set of instincts to
begin with and that they get better at parenting as they go.  I don't think
that it means that they must learn how to parent from their parents.  Maybe
I've missed your point, but I don't see how preventing a particular pair
from learning to be better parents will lead to the demise of parenting in
apistos.  Unparented offspring will still have the instincts for parenting
and they will still improve if allowed to.  The only way I could see such a
scenario occuring is if removing the parents allowed individuals with bad
parenting instincts to have more offspring  and reduce the percentage of
good parents out there.

Also, it seems to me (in my ignorance), that a significant percentage of
apisto's in the hobby are wild caught.  Such a steady influx of wild stock
should insure that even if it is true that tank spawned fish must learn to
parent, there will still be plenty of able teachers out there to maintain
the skills.
------------------------------------
Dept. of Ecology & Evol. Biology, MS-170
Rice University
135 Anderson Biology Lab
6100 Main
Houston, TX. 77005-1892

Ph: (713)527-4919
fax: (713)285-5232
e-mail: henshawm-at-ruf.rice.edu

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RE: artificial hatching

by Tom Mroz <tmroz/art-inc.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997
To: "'apisto/majordomo.pobox.com'" <apisto/majordomo.pobox.com>

I have nearly always had poor luck keeping the fry with the female.  In 
attempting this with at least six different species, I have consistently 
observed egg eating in all cases.  This is true for some species after 
allowing them 3-5 consecutive opportunities to "do well".  Alternately, by 
pulling the eggs, I can ensure 90+% hatchrates, and propagation of the 
species.  I have had too many cases where I loose a male or female of a 
difficult to obtain species right after spawning to allow the female the 
opportunity to hatch fry (or eat the eggs) herself.  In these cases, I 
never get that second change.

I would like to see results of a side-by-side study that conclusively shows 
the link between parent quality and fry history.  I tend to think we 
anthropomorphise these things too much, and that much of the female's 
caretaking is instinctual.  I think the problem with egg eaters is related 
more to the environment than their own upbringing.  So, perhaps if I gave 
my pairs 40 gallon tanks, or if I diligently removed males, I might have 
better luck, regardless of where the fish came from.  Of course, I could 
certainly be wrong.....

I DO think that fry tend to grow much faster in the presence of the female 
in many cichlid species - apistos included.  I don't know why this would 
be, but I have certainly experienced it firsthand.  It would be my first 
reason to allow apisto females to keep their spawns - if only I could be 
certain they would not snack on them.

Tom



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RE: artificial hatching

by Ken Laidlaw <kl/jach.hawaii.edu>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997
To: "'apisto/majordomo.pobox.com'" <apisto/majordomo.pobox.com>

> I DO think that fry tend to grow much faster in the presence of the female 
> in many cichlid species - apistos included.  I don't know why this would 
> be, but I have certainly experienced it firsthand. 

I have also seen evidence of this.  The first time I successfully raised
an apisto (A.trifasciata) I pulled about half the fry after a couple of
days of freeswimming.  The fry left with their mother grew at a much
faster rate.

Ken.

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Fwd: factors relating to growth

by "Ed Pon" <edpon/hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

>I seem to have better luck with growth if the fry remain in the tank of 
the
>parents (gravel, plants) than if I transport them to a bare tank of the 
same
>gallonage.  Perhaps it is the parenting, but it could also be the 
availability of
>small food in a gravel-based and planted  tank.  Another possibility is 
the
>bacteria action in the non-bare tank.  Do the bacteria remove some 
hormones or
>toxins which can build up in the bare tank?  I'd add this variable as 
something
>to be investigated.
>
>I have occaisionally noticed problems with growth in either set up 
after the fish
>reach a certain size.  Perhaps I'm just underestimating the amount of 
additional
>food 1/2 fry need compared to 1/4 inch fry.  After all, doubling length 
probably
>quadruples body mass.
>
>--Randy

I don't recall seeing this behavior in Apistos, but convicts will use 
their "chests" to bulldoze some of the gravel and stir up food particles 
and maybe small critters in the gravel for their fry to eat. I think the 
fry grow faster with the parents because of this help.  Most aquarists 
don't have the time to constantly dump food into the tank whereas the 
parents are constantly herding the fry around the tank seeking the best 
grazing areas.

I have noted the slowdown in growth when fry get to a certain size and I 
wonder if it is attributable to the anti-growth hormone theory.  There 
is a theory that some cichlids emit anti-growth hormone that cause fish 
of the same species to slow down in growth and even get sick.  The 
theory is that this is survival-enhancement for drought periods when the 
pools of water may be smaller and food is less abundant.  I wonder if 
increased water changes at this stage or lessening the amount of fish in 
the tank may help.  In raising bearded dragons, a type of lizard, the 
intimidation from some of the faster growing lizards seems to stunt the 
growth of their cohabitants whereas if the lizards were raised 
individually, they all have roughly the same growth rate.  Perhaps 
intimidation from certain individuals in the growth are slowing down the 
growth of others because of stress and the inability to eat more because 
of bullying.

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repeat offenders of domestic violence?!?!?

by Steven Hutchins <hutchins.33/osu.edu>
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

At 04:57 PM 12/9/97 -0800, you wrote:
>At 06:52 PM 12/9/97 -0600, Michael W McGrath wrote:
>>I lost a female Apisto Cacatuoides today. She was pretty messed
>>up. Course I do not know if this happened before, or after
>>she died. But the male in the tank with her has already smacked
>>another female around about a month ago. At that time he had her
>>by the stomach about halfway down his throat. So once a beater always
>>a beater?? It's a 30 g tank, loaded with plants and hiding spots.
>>Any ideas?
>
>Find a new male. Don't use him again. He's got a severe attitude problem and
>it is best to find another male with a better disposition. IMO.
>
>Kaycy
>
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>
>
I completely agree, I've had males that no matter how many times I
rearrange the tank decorations they still beat the females, get a new male
if possible, or put him in a larger tank, that might work.  More dither
fish might also help, or with cacatuoides more females (3-4) might help
spread his attention out.
STEEV

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repeat offenders of domestic violence?!?!?

by wrisch/uclink4.berkeley.edu (Lisa Wrischnik)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

Hi gang,

One thing I have had work a couple of times with mean males is to keep the
pair together in a 10 gal separated by a tank divider.  Leave them like
that for a month or two - they sometimes get used to one another and once
the divider is
removed, they get along. This worked well for one pair of panduro I had.

I think if you have the option, Kaycy's advice is good ("good lookin' guys
are a dime a dozen....."), but if you don't, give the divider a try.

Lisa


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Cacatuoides chasing neons

by wrisch/uclink4.berkeley.edu (Lisa Wrischnik)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

In regards to apistos killing tankmates:

I agree with the advice to leave the neons in the tank.  I think we've
discussed this before (so apologies for the redundancy), but I believe the
presence of dithers/targets fosters an "us vs. them" mentality that can
sometimes help strengthen the pair bond. I figure it's worth a few tetras.

I "accidentally" used discus fry (quarter sized) as dithers for a pair of
nijsseni once, and the male used to "spin" them around by pushing against
them (like you'd spin a coin on a table top). I was pretty funny, in a sick
sort of way. He didn't kill any, either.

In regards to removing males, it's funny, because I always leave the male
in the tank with the female when they spawn, and I've only had one "killer
cacatuoides" female. I wonder if that's why I've lost spawns from several
other species, though. I think the absolute worst aggression I've seen
among breeding apistos that are monogomous is with conspecifics still in
the tank, so I do think removing any extra male/female apistos around is a
good idea in those cases (I had 2M/3F nijsseni in a 55 gal tank, and once a
pair formed, the others were killed in about 2 days - I've learned the hard
way how fast apistos can kill each other once they set their mind to it, my
personal record being 12 hours. Sometimes one just doesn't have that extra
tank space).

And Kaycy was right - at 1" my little "killer cacatuoides" female managed
to kill 3 huge males I gave her (in a well planted 55 gal,
no less, with lots of tankmates). So don't let the size differential fool
you into a false sense of complacency.

Lisa


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Cacatuoides chasing neons

by "Darren J. Hanson" <djhanson/calweb.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

>I agree with the advice to leave the neons in the tank.  I think we've
>discussed this before (so apologies for the redundancy), but I believe the
>presence of dithers/targets fosters an "us vs. them" mentality that can
>sometimes help strengthen the pair bond. I figure it's worth a few tetras.
I first started using dithers in my tanks when I first got into doing
Apistos. After a few days I quickly removed them all. I have had better luck
with my Apisto breeders when it is just the pair in the tank. Just my opinion.

>I "accidentally" used discus fry (quarter sized) as dithers for a pair of
>nijsseni once, and the male used to "spin" them around by pushing against
>them (like you'd spin a coin on a table top). I was pretty funny, in a sick
>sort of way. He didn't kill any, either.
>
>In regards to removing males, it's funny, because I always leave the male
>in the tank with the female when they spawn, and I've only had one "killer
>cacatuoides" female. I wonder if that's why I've lost spawns from several
>other species, though. I think the absolute worst aggression I've seen
>among breeding apistos that are monogomous is with conspecifics still in
>the tank, so I do think removing any extra male/female apistos around is a
>good idea in those cases (I had 2M/3F nijsseni in a 55 gal tank, and once a
>pair formed, the others were killed in about 2 days - I've learned the hard
>way how fast apistos can kill each other once they set their mind to it, my
>personal record being 12 hours. Sometimes one just doesn't have that extra
>tank space).
I will usually leave the males. But, when it gets to where the male is
hiding so much to get away from his beloved, that is when I remove him but
only to put him in the tank next to her. When she is ready to let him help
with the freeswimming fry, then I place him back. This way she will always
know he's there but can't get to him.

>And Kaycy was right - at 1" my little "killer cacatuoides" female managed
>to kill 3 huge males I gave her (in a well planted 55 gal,
>no less, with lots of tankmates). So don't let the size differential fool
>you into a false sense of complacency.
Been there, done that. That is how I know.

Kaycy

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Bad mom!

by IDMiamiBob/aol.com
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

In a message dated 97-11-22 19:56:51 EST, George wrote:

<< How long should I wait to take out the fry`s or would I be better off
 taking out the parents.
  >>
The parents will usually spawn about 8 or 9 days after the previous spawn is
free swimming, but this depends on a number of factors relating to age, diet,
a broad spectrum of water conditions, and the individual fish themselves.  I
would wait no more than six days, and it is easier to move the parents,
although if the tank is on an upper shelf, the fry can be siphoned to a lower
tank with reasonable ease.[there's a long sentence for you!!]  I suspect that
siphoning the fry is the prefered method by most of the folks on this list,
but that is based purely on conjecture, and not any formal survey.  Perhaps
we could get an informal poll going from anyone who cares to answer.  Perhaps
somene has had trouble with one method or the other that we may find useful.
 I was having trouble with belly-sliders the first couple times I siphoned
the fry, but I seem to have solved that by filling at least 60% of the
receiving tank with water from the original spawning tank.

Bob

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Incomplete tank divider method -Reply

by "Kathryn Olson" <Kathryn.Olson/vmmc.org>
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com



>>> Ken Laidlaw <K.Laidlaw-at-roe.ac.uk> 02/20/98 01:53am >>>


>>>>>>>>>>>
I would say that a ten gallon tank (with plented of hiding=20
places) is easily big enough for a pair of Apistos and you=20
don't need to segregate them . If you find you need to=20
remove the male after spawning then just remove him.  I=20
have never suffered the loss of an  Apisto due to=20
male/female aggression, has anyone?
>>>>>>>

Ken,

I have lost a male nijsseni. (heavily planted 20gal)

With sp Swartzsaum (?sp) I had a trio in a tank (15g) , the females would =
spawn within a day or two of each other.  I believe if I am remembering =
correctly we had one female steal the others fry and then lost her.

Borelli, this one was my fault, a trio and two paired off and killed the =
third female, before they spawned (10g)

The only clear case in my mind was the nijsenni.

Kathy


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BREEDING A. AGASSIZI

by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com>
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com



Antonio Alcántara Peyres wrote:

> Antionio,

Your water conditions are very acceptable (more acidic than really necessary, but
OK).  The tank size is OK, too, but on the small size.  When I keep losing eggs I
remove the male as quietly as possible, or separate him from the female with a
divider.  I also cover the front of the tank and leave a dim light on above the
tank all of the time until the fry are freeswimming for about a week.  Some
female frighten more than others, leading to them eating their eggs.

Stick with your aggies.  Your water conditions are not quite good enough for
breeding the A. gibbiceps that usually is found in the hobby.  This species is
difficult even in larger tanks with ideal conditions (pH <5.5 and no hardness at
all!).

Mike Wise

>
>
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A.nijsseni spawn

by Ken Laidlaw <K.Laidlaw/roe.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com


> > Ken.
> 
> Do males ever participate in fry rising? The whole patter of behavior is 
> very different in this tank, but - here are eggs and they are well cared 
> for so far!

Well, in my experience I would say on the whole no.  Some 
species (or perhaps based on individuals) will allow the 
male near the fry after they grow a little.  My A.puerto 
narino female did not attack the male and seemed quite 
happy to have him around (there were a few dithers in the 
tank.

When I or my friend Ian have bred nijsseni the male has 
always had to be removed.  This was in small tanks though.

Ken.



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Fwd: Re: small fish

by <kathy/thekrib.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998
To: Ed Pon <edpon/hotmail.com>


> I've seen this and in addition. I've seen mother cichlids use their 
> chest to plow up the substrate and stir up small cloud from the 
> substrate so the fry can presumably eat.  When I was younger, and had 
> more times on my hands, I would feed my fish almost everytime I walked 
> by their tank.  The amount wasn't a great deal, but the ideal was to 
> kept them constantly fed.  This plus water changes seemed to get 
> exceptional growth from the fish.  Leaving baby apistos with their 
> mothers actually probably gets the babies fed more frequently than what 
> most people will be able to.
> 
> I know why why has to constantly coax our kids to eat.  Perhaps the 
> mother also plays this role with baby apistos.

In one apisto book I read they theorized one of the duties of the mother
was to help guide fry to high food areas/grazing/ and of coarse protection
(Schmettkamp).  I agree, I have found fry raised with mom tend to grow
faster.  I have found some species grow quickers than other, perhaps just
a subjective find on my part.  My nijsseni grow very quickly in
comparisons to some other species, this has been consistent over several
spawns.  Now feeding multiple times a day is always a challenge to me.
With my school/work schedule I am out the door long before the lights are
on and try to make it home before the go off.  Thought about lengthening
the light schedule, but I share tank space  with Erik who has his own
regimen for the plants, no algae, blooming cycles and such.  So I do
what I can, and accept the results.  It is cool to hear what everyone else
does, thanks!!!!

Kathy


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small fish

by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

After reading all of the responses to this thread, one thing I didn't see mentioned
is the importance of maternal care in fry growth. I & others have found that fry
removed from their mother tend to hide motionless on the bottom for longer periods of
time than those kept with their mothers. The mother's job is to not only to guide her
fry to food, but warn them of possible dangers and, when possible, even protect them
by attacking potential predators. Females have developed an elaborate set of color
patterns that emphasize certain signals - when to hide, when it's OK to move about
and feed, etc. With a protective female ready to defend them, the fry are out and
looking for food more often. This certainly leads to faster growing fry.

Mike Wise

Randy or Deb Carey wrote:

> I certainly have this problem from time to time.  (I never sell these unless at a
> big discount and I inform the buyer.)
>
> I have wondered about the causes:  small tank, too infrequent water changes,
> under-estimating the amount of food to feed, hormones from adult fish.
>
> As for feeding, I realized that if I need one squirt of bbs when they are at a
> certain size, they may need 8 times that once they double in size (double in
> length, width, and height... or two cubed).  So I've wondered if some of our
> problems stem from underestimating how much food to feed a clutch of 40 to 80
> fry.  Or, as Kathy's comments points out, the young fish are too shy or
> non-aggressive to eat to their fill.
>
> As for hormones, this is just a wild guess.  I think fry tend to grow faster if I
> leave them with their mom.  Does she provide some hormone of other benefit to her
> fry?  Conversely, I've seen young kept in the tank with Dad and not grow as much
> as they should.  Could he be giving off a hormone that stunts the growth of
> future competitors?  If so, it would only be potent enough if the number of adult
> fish saturated the given amount of stagnant water.  This is just a guess.
>
> In short, I, too, have had broods that never seem to grow out to their parent's
> size.  Someday, someone should experiment.  He/She could split up a brood, place
> them in three or four different tanks, and subject each tank to different
> forces:  higher fish density, higher food availability, one group kept with Mom,
> etc.  Then measure the growth in each tank after 3 or 4 months. Think of what we
> all might learn from such an experiment!
>
> --Randy
>
> > On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, Mike Jacobs wrote:
> >
> > > Eric Olsen said:
> > >
> > > >We've spawned borellii, but
> > > >the fry are still tiny even after almost a year.
> > >
> > > ..........I experienced the same thing that Eric
> > > did with the borellii.....SMALL babies after a year.  Folks these aren't
> > > in a 10 gallon.  They are in a 125 gallon and get feed 2-3 times a day
> > > with live bbs and live black wor[m]s.  Two of the batches grew just fine
> > > and were quite the studs.....<snip>
> > >
> > > Mike
>
> > kathy-at-thekrib.com wrote:
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > Ours were in a 60 with other apisto fry I was raising.  They tend to be
> > shyer and more fragile than the others.  I was wondering if to effectively
> > raise these guys I would have to dedicate a tank only to them, they don't
> > seem like a very competative apisto.
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > Kathy
> >
>
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Parental behavior

by "Maladorno, Dionigi {DRUG~Nutley}" <DIONIGI.MALADORNO/roche.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998
To: "'apisto/majordomo.pobox.com'" <apisto/majordomo.pobox.com>

I may regret this in the near future due to the tone of
the debate that is ongoing, but I would like to point out
that the issue of selecting individuals with egg-eating behavior
by rearing eggs artificially is further complicated by
the fact that, if a selection indeed occurs (I have no
competence in this, and personally I just don't know), 
it might refer to the lack of ability to raise eggs in a non-natural 
environment. In other words, I am wondering if the strains 
that eat eggs might have a behavior more "natural" than
those who don't, given the obvious advantage of re-cycling
energy resources when the ideal spawning conditions
(physical and environmental, such as pH, conductivity,
lack of adequate territory size, etc.) are not present.
So, I am not even sure if egg-eating is a negative or
positive trait: probably it depends on what the acquarist
wants to accomplish, and both views are acceptable.
Take this as an hypothesis from somebody who knows
nothing about ethology.

Dionigi Maladorno
dionigi.maladorno@roche.com
This message presents personal opinions which are not necessarily those
of my employer.


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Rams

by Ken Laidlaw <K.Laidlaw/roe.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com


> At 07:20 AM 11/2/98 -0600, Lilia Stepanova wrote:
> > I am pulling 
> >eggs from mine, it may be controversial but they ate their eggs before. 
> 
> By doing this you are developing a strain that will not tend their brood.
> I hope you are destroying them before they breed.  The failure to do brood
> care is a very undesireable characteristic.  If these were the last
> remaining examples, it might be justifiable, but for rams????

Sadly, I think this is already the case.  I agree with you 
though that fish lose their instinct to care for their fry. 
Most angel fry are raised away from their parents as they 
tend to eat the eggs.

Another point worth considering is that fry grow faster if 
left with their mother.  My first Apisto spawn was 
A.trifasciata.  I removed about half the free swimming fry 
after a few days as some were swimming through a tank 
divider to be eaten on the other side.  The fry left with 
their mother grew considerably faster than those moved to 
another rearing tank.

Ken. 



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Rams de-selection

by "Helen Burns" <hlnburns/thefree.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998
To: <apisto/majordomo.pobox.com>

Mike,
I commented on this list a few months ago that all to often hobbyists are
too eager to remove eggs.  By doing this it can also lead to breaking pair
bonding.  I have never removed any spawnings from my cichlids, large or
small species.
I totally agree with all that you have said, it is just a pity more
aquarists don't feel the same.
Helen.
From: Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise@bewellnet.com>
>Being a basically lazy person, I rarely pull eggs. After 4-6 spawns my
dwarfs
>usually figure out how reproduce on their own. If this doesn't happen, I
then
>check to see if there are any physical or social parameters that could be
changed
>to help reproduction along. I will artificially hatch only extremely rare
fish,
>usually on the first and second spawns. The first two spawns are often
>unsuccessfully hatched by them anyway. After this, if I have a batch of
healthy
>fry, I let them try it themselves from then on. In this way the fish get
the
>experience to reproduce on their own.

>Mike Wise




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Rams de-selection

by Mike Jacobs <mfjacobs/geocities.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com



Dave Gomberg wrote:

>
>
> Maybe the parents knew the fry would not survive better than you did????
>
>

Dave.........this is not aimed directly at you.  Rather,  I've sat by for 3-4-5
days reading all of these notes to NEVER pull the eggs from apistos because we
will now have a generation of miscreant apistos that won't know their mother
from their father.

Absolutly every time I get in a new apisto I pull the first 1-2 batches until I
feel I have enough  to 1) keep the species in a group for myself.....10-15   2)
give some to friends and 3)  sell a few to the LFS because he is a nice man and
wants apistos.

After that, you know what...........the parents always seem capable of raising
the young, and I have 2-3 generations of from the original pair and the same is
true.

I have been breeding and selling angels for about 10 years.  Two of the strains
I have are 10 years old..........99% of the angels I raise are taken away from
the pair and artifically raised......that is until I can't hold anymore and I
leave them in with the parents and the parents raise them like nothing ever
happened.

What I've observed for 10+ years is certianly not emperical evidence, but I
don't see any EVIDENCE to the contrary either other than  ".....well, people
told me.....".

How long do you think these fish keep track of their young in the wild.
According to some people you would think the youn apistos stay with the mother
for 3-4 weeks.  I really don't think so.  In talking with people who have been
chest deep in the Amazon river and NEVER seen a mother with babies, the current
is at times overwhelming and I really don't think the young hang around for more
than 2-3-4-5 days after free swimming.  When I was a young boy I use to creep up
on bluegill and bass in farm ponds and watch them endlessly as they corraled the
young.  I would get to watch such a female for about 3-4-5 days after free
swimming and then all of the young will have been eaten or they went their own
way.  Now this was in a lazy old farm pond......in a river with the current
sweeping things away I think we have to revisit the thoughts about the length of
time parents keep the fry and the effect that care has on the young.  I've had
mothers keep fry for a month.......but not in the wild!

Take your shots but be civil please!

Mike





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Rams de-selection

by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

Joel,

I for one don't condemn any kind of breeding except for most purposeful crossing
of species and their sale (Red Parrot Cichlid, Yuck!! Red Velvet Sword are great.
I just wish you could find them that looked like they did in the 60s & 70s.).
Rams were messed up long before you got into raising them, unless you've been
doing it for the past 50 years. The original Rams were imported to Florida in
1947 or 48 and were bred just like angels. Hobbyists had no problems breeding
these fish. Around 1955 - 1960 aquarium articles mention increasing difficulties
in breeding these fish at home with the parents. Five to 10 years of pulling eggs
seems to have removed the parental instincts in commercial fish. Commercial
breeders, like you, do this for a valid reason. There's nothing wrong with this.
We have to realize that 99%+ of all Rams sold are not for breeding, but for show
just like angels. For me, however, I've had more success with wild Rams than
domestic, both breeding and healthwise (mostly because of the preponderance of
problem Asian bred fish in commercial circles). If I want Rams for breeding I
will always buy wild or search out parental raised offspring from a
hobbyist/breeder.

Keep up the good work.

Mike Wise

joel and angie wasdyke wrote:

> If pulling eggs is going to be condemned as the work of lesser mortal
> fish-keepers, someone needs to let the angel breeders, most commercial
> discus breeders and a whole lot of african mouth-brooder keepers in on the
> secret.
>
> For most of the species that I keep I have no problem letting the fish hatch
> and raise the young.  Most species have no problem.  For some reason rams
> are an exception.  If this is a learned or genetic trait, does it mean that
> I should destroy the breeding lines that I have now.  On the other hand, I
> have young african mouth-brooders that I artificially hatched that have no
> problem brooding young until release.  Does this make them smarter or less
> able to learn from their genetic and environmental past than rams.
>
> On the other hand, it all depends on the goal. For most of the species I
> have I raise a spawn here and their and am just happy to have them spawning.
> For the rams, I am working up to raising several hundred a month and the ram
> pairs don't have the room to do that kind of brooding.
>
> Joel WasDyke
>
> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 20:13:48 -0000
> From: "Helen Burns" <hlnburns@thefree.net>
> Subject: Re: Rams de-selection
>
> Mike,
> I commented on this list a few months ago that all to often hobbyists are
> too eager to remove eggs.  By doing this it can also lead to breaking pair
> bonding.  I have never removed any spawnings from my cichlids, large or
> small species.
> I totally agree with all that you have said, it is just a pity more
> aquarists don't feel the same.
> Helen.
> From: Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise@bewellnet.com>
> >Being a basically lazy person, I rarely pull eggs. After 4-6 spawns my
> dwarfs
> >usually figure out how reproduce on their own. If this doesn't happen, I
> then
> >check to see if there are any physical or social parameters that could be
> changed
> >to help reproduction along. I will artificially hatch only extremely rare
> fish,
> >usually on the first and second spawns. The first two spawns are often
> >unsuccessfully hatched by them anyway. After this, if I have a batch of
> healthy
> >fry, I let them try it themselves from then on. In this way the fish get
> the
> >experience to reproduce on their own.
>
> >Mike Wise
>
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rogue's gallery

by Frauley/Elson <fraulels/minet.ca>
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998
To: apisto list <apisto/majordomo.pobox.com>

Hello everyone,
I just recorded yet another eating of wrigglers by my Apisto agassizii
Alenquer. They are wonder to behold, but terrible parents, having
spawned and munched at least 15 times. The next time, I'll have to break
down and pilfer the eggs.
As I was contemplating this, I thought of something that could be useful
for the list archives in their various forms. I've seen references to
steindachneri as chronic egg and fry eaters, but I've only once seen the
species alive, and have not yet kept it. Agas have always been trouble
for me. 
Most of my apistos eat their first spawn then settle down. I can say
this for mcmasteri, veijita, hongsloi, panduro, njisseni, sp rotpunkt,
caeti, cacatuoides and Apistogrammoides pucallpaensis. For me, agas, sp
breitbinden, and biteniatum have never raised their fry (like M.
ramirezi, they all come from blackwater. Hmm. However, I've kept them in
rainwater, in water values that had tough West African nanochromis
breeding like rats). Which species have been chronic eggeaters (more
than four spawns in apparently good conditions) for others on the list?
It might be something for us all to look at, especially since Apistos
are so hard to get, and that's a big limiting factor to our learning
about them species by species.
-Gary Elson


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rogue's gallery

by IDMiamiBob/aol.com
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

Gary Elson writes:

> I just recorded yet another eating of wrigglers by my Apisto agassizii
>  Alenquer. They are wonder to behold, but terrible parents, having
>  spawned and munched at least 15 times. The next time, I'll have to break
>  down and pilfer the eggs.
>  As I was contemplating this, I thought of something that could be useful
>  for the list archives in their various forms. I've seen references to
>  steindachneri as chronic egg and fry eaters, but I've only once seen the
>  species alive, and have not yet kept it. Agas have always been trouble
>  for me.

For me on the other hand, aggies have been ideal parents from the first spawn.
Same with steindachneri, borellii, and bitaeniata.  Recently I have tried with
zero success to get both cacatoides and panduro to tend fry, with every spawn
but one lost before or just after hatching.  These parents are from lines that
have been allowed to tend fry, so it is not some genetic degeneration of the
parenting instinct.  I suspect that it may have something to do with either
the local water or my setups, as I lived in Buffalo when I was having luck,
and now reside in Boise.  I am convinced there are "triggers" that we have not
yet identified, which account for the fish eating or tending the fry.  I would
not give up on your aggies just yet, though I would recommend you save a spawn
or two once in a while to keep them available in your fish room.

You might try changing the conditions in your tanks.  For example, when I
lived back east, all my spawning tanks were painted black on the back and one
side.  This is something the local killie keepers almost always did.  The only
spawn I have had luck getting my cacatoos to tend were in a thirty gallon with
a black back.  The logic behind this has to do with making the fish feel safe.
The fella in Welland, Ontario that I got my borrellii from had no luck even
getting them to spawn.  The only significant difference between his tanks and
mine were a black back, the presence of java moss, and I had black gravel
where he used white sand.  They spawned for me in a week after I brought them
home.  

Hardness and dissolved minerals in the two water supplies are different.  I
think that there is significantly more silicate here in Idaho.  I'm going to
get an RO unit someday, and see if that makes a difference.

If you're using a UGF, try slowing down the flow.  Try finer gravel, darler
gravel, more live plants, particularly java moss.  Maybe the presence of
infusoria in the tank, which can be promoted by java moss, is something the
fish can see.  Lack of infusoria or fresh water rotifers would tell the
parents that the fry will starve, so they would eat the eggs or fry in order
to preserve the food and energy which the eggs represent.

Maybe someone who is having trouble can try getting a culture of paramecia or
euglena going, and introduce some regularly to the tank.  Daphnia and
microworms might also work.  I am currently running six tanks spread out in a
small apartment shared with my own four posterities, and don't have room for a
lot of experimentation.

When I visited Dave Soares a couple years ago, he had java moss, java fern,
and algae everywhere.  His success rate is legendary, and he never pulls the
eggs, siphoning off the fry when they are 3-5 days old.

Bob Dixon


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Artificially hatching Ram Eggs

by "Helen Burns" <hlnburns/thefree.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999
To: <apisto/majordomo.pobox.com>

I have mentioned before on this list that I totally disapprove of
artificially hatching cichlid spawns.  In five years my cichlids have
successfully reared their own fry, 59 species large and small with no
intervention from myself.
Both parents remaining in the tank.  I have never had either male or female
killing their partner.
Only on one occasion I had to remove the male, that was with Nannacara
anomala, the female was such a devoted mother she almost killed the male
when she appeared with the fry.  He lived to tell the tale.  If I have a
species that do not have successful spawnings I pass them onto another
hobbyist who have had success with them in the past.  I would never even
consider removing a spawn to artificially hatch.  I apologise for going on a
bit but battery farming is not an option for my cichlids anyway.
Helen

>You may be about to start the debate about leaving the
>parents with the eggs and to let them raise them as
>cichlids  do naturally.  This for me is the main enjoyment
>that can be gained from keeping cichlids.
>Ken.
>
>> Hello all
>> It's been my experience that I have a hard time artificially hatching
>> ram eggs.   I don't have this problem with anyother of the dwarf
>> cichlids I keep.   What I've been successful with, is leaving the male
>> with the eggs .   I remove the female as she tends to eat the eggs or
>> fry.  When the eggs become wigglers I remove the male from the tank as
>> well.  Once the eggs hatch and become wigglers the hard part for me
>> over.   They will become free swimming in a few days and then I start
>> feeding microworms and newly hatched brine shrimp to the tank.   What
>> your water quality as the fry are sensitive for the first couple of
>> weeks.   Good luck with them!
>>
>> John Wubbolt
>> Tupper Lake NY




Artificially hatching Ram Eggs

by BigJohnW/webtv.net (John Wubbolt)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

Well I'm sorry I got this debate thing going.
One of the reasons I artificially raise the eggs is to insure a large as
possible hatch.  Yes I have males that love to eat eggs and fry.  No I
don't necessarily keep Apistos for the fun of it.   They pay my way to
many fish shows, workshops and conventions.   If I raise just 20 fish
with the parents in the tank as compared to say 70 without the parents.
I'll take the 70.   I do let female fan the eggs until they hatch and
become wigglers.  This is the point when I steal the fry or remove the
parents.   Now my large cichlids that give me 200 plus fry in a batch, I
leave with parents.   Dwarf Cichlids are a different story.   I can
already see the amount of response I'm going to recieve from this, but
that is the way I do things.   When I have 5 tanks full of Apistogramma
Cacatuoides fry already I don't mind leaving the next batch with the
parents, but until then, I steal the fry. 


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raising cichlids without their parents

by Frauley/Elson <fraulels/minet.ca>
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

I smell smoke. Must be flames... We keep having this debate. There's a
rich archive somewhere.
I raise my fish with the parents unless I'm desperate about losing a
rare fish. In that case, I raise the stolen fry and let them raise their
own broods from the safety of a larger population. It's never backfired
unless I never got a second generation spawning.
That being said, I've traded fish with John Wubbolt, and they've turned
out to be great parents. Nothing second rate, and NEVER incapable of
raising their own fry. I just don't see any data to support these
'accusations' or their tone.
I don't find taking the eggs to be a satisfying way to raise my fish, so
I don't do it. If someone else does, I see no scientific data to prove
harm, just anecdotes from other species. John takes the fry, I don't.
When I got the fish from John, they behaved no differently than the
'parent raised' fish I had passed to him.
When I had double-red cacatuoides, no doubt the result of generations of
egg-taking as they were strictly commercial fish-farm in origin, pairs
left on their own with their fry behaved exactly the same as two wild
cacatuoides forms I had at the same time.
We're talking fishkeeping style here, and I believe this thread should
unravel...
-Gary Elson
 
ALEX PASTOR wrote:
> 
> Re: John Wubbolt's fish business:
> 
> Aside from making lots of ?money? raising these fish, what 's the point when
> fish raised without parents won't be capable of raising their own fry.  So
> he sells, basically "seconds" to people for the price of top quality fish.
 
> I think most "serious" breeders will agree with me, so I don't feel at all
> afraid to provide my opinions regarding this most unethical practice.
> 
> Dr.G. Kadar
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------


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artificially hatching ram eggs

by "D Kinyon" <dkinyon/shentel.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999
To: <apisto/majordomo.pobox.com>


Hello all

I don't usually write in to the group, I'd rather listen and learn, but 
I've got to say something about this. I raise apistos and other dwarves 
both with and without their parents: artificial raising almost always 
gets a higher number of fry, but raising the young with the parents is 
alot more FUN, and that's what most of us are doing this for, isn't it? 
If someone can raise more fish by pulling the eggs, good for him. Does 
it do any harm to parents or fry to separate them?

Lighten up, Doc.

My two cents
Don


raising cichlids without their parents

by IDMiamiBob/aol.com
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

G. Kadar writes:

>>  It dawned on me this moprning that her mother
>>had moved the wrigglers as they hatched from the cave to an indent in a
>>  piece
>>of driftwood that had peice of slate over it, forming a "cave" with a solid
>>bottom.  All the caves in her tank have gravel bottoms.  So this week I
>>  will
>>create some spots for the fry to get moved to, and try one more time.  Bad
>>parents?  No, just bad husbandry on my part, until I can prove differently.
>  
>  If the question of whether fish learn anything is not an issue, why bother?

Because it is also the practice of the great-grandparents of these
cacatuoides, which originally I got from Dave Soares, to do the same thing.
And every spawn in the last three generations that I have "convinced" the
mother to raise were done that same way.  It's not that the female has learned
this, but that her genetic coding calls for certain specific practices which
are consistent with the onment of her native habitat, namely the Amazon.
These conditions permit her to find a shelter among the leaves and roots which
have a solid bottom.  If she does not have these conditons, then she is driven
by instinct to detirmine that the spawn is not salvageable, and she reabsorbs
the energy and nutrition of the fry for future use.  No, she doesn't reason it
out like that, but that is essentially what her instincts drive her to do.

And yes, natural selection compelled these instinctive behaviors into the
fish, but it took millenia, not three or four generations, to achieve.  My
contention is that it would take dozens, nay, hundreds, of generations for
genetically poor parents to  gain the upper hand over good parents in captive
breeding.  And some of us are still giving the good parents the advantage, and
therefore the instinct will survive.

The reason I always succeeded in getting angels to display traditional cichlid
parenting skills is because I always paid attention to this kind of detail.

Bob Dixon


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raising cichlids without their parents

by Fi205sh/aol.com
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

In a message dated 1/24/99 2:29:02 PM Central Standard Time, alexp@idirect.com
writes:

<< Yes, and fish sent in massive shipments have a high mortality rate,
 especially when they are sold for very low prices to people who haven't got
 a clue as to how to take care of them.  (And yes, when I was eleven years
 old, I did it wrong too).  I realize that this is a big business.  I also
 realize that it is the way in which many people world-wide make a living. >>

I think you gave the best reason for raising fry away from their parents. I
always pull the first spawn from any new Apisto, or other Cichlid for that
matter, to insure I have the largest number of fry to distribute to other
hobbyists. When I have "enough" I may allow the parents to raise their own fry
or in most cases pass the pair to another person. This way I may do a small
part to decrease the demand for wild caught fish, (which isn't my personal
reason, I just like to have others enjoy a fish I have enjoyed). 

I have never found any conclusive evidence that artificially reared fry are
less likely to exhibit the innate behavior of fry rearing than any other
method. It took millions of years to develop those behaviors and would take
millions of years to diminish the same behavior. Those are only excuses for
your personal enjoyment of watching fry care and trying to impose or
intimidate others into your view. I've been keeping & breeding fish for more
than 40 years and my goal is to have fun and learn about my favorite hobby,
not anthropomorphise my fish.

Tom Wojtech


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A. Cruzi spawn? or not?

by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999
To: apisto/admin.listbox.com



Paul Evans wrote:

> After the fry hatch are they generally moved out of the
> cave before they become free swimming?

No, the female usually chews the larvae out of the egg shell and places them in a
pit dug in the bottom sand inside the cave.

>  My tank has a sand substrate so I guess the fry could be placed in a
> pit under the root and I would never see them.

That's right, apistos are very secretive. With them patience is a real virtue.

Mike Wise

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attention Erik

by "Carol L. Farmer" <clh/tennis.org>
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999
To: "'Erik/thekrib.com'" <Erik/thekrib.com>

Erik, I too have been breeding A. cactuoides to get my feet wet (after
unsuccessfully trying to breed A. njessini).  I have had several
clutches in the past year and have raised quite a few fry and made some
mistakes along the way as well.  An interesting thing happened yesterday
though... I have three females and one male that I use for breeding.
Female #2 had a clutch of eggs hatch late last week.  I usually vacuum
out the fry once they are free swimming and rear them separately.  So
Monday I vac'd out about 40 fry.  They were really small and I think I
removed them too early, so the remaining fry, 20 or so, I decided to
keep with the female for a few more days.  Meanwhile, female #1 has a
new clutch of eggs on Monday.  Figuring they would hatch on Wednesday I
pretty much ignored her.  On Tuesday, I went to vac out remaining fry
from Female #2 and got nothing, I couldn't find them anywhere.  Assuming
they had gotten eaten I gave up.  Wed afternoon I checked on Female #1
and noticed her eggs hatched.  And boy were her fry huge.  As I looked
closer, I noticed the just hatched fry as well as the free swimming fry
of female #2.  It appears that #1 "adopted" or stole #2's fry.  have you
ever heard of this occurring before?
Thanks, Carol


3.5 and 10 gal raising A. caca

by BigJohnW/webtv.net (John Wubbolt)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999
To: apisto/admin.listbox.com

Hello Kris
Yes, the set up you're talking about would work, but give the male a
chance before you decide to boot him out to the 3.5 gallon tank.   I've
had males that were both egg and fry eaters and then again I've had
males that were good dads.  My suggestion would be to find out which one
the male you have is first.   Presently I have a pair of Double reds
tthat the male is a notorious fry eater and I have a pair of the "Orange
Flash" color form where the male is a good dad.   You could try adding a
few dither fish like Cardinals to make the male a better parent before
banishing him to the small tank.   Eventually you will have to add him
back to the 10 gallon tank as he will quickly out grow a 3.5 gallon
tank.    Either you'll need to set up another 10 gallon tank or move all
the fry out of the breeding tank before placing him back in with the
female.    Just avoid fish like plecos or corys when you set up your
planted 10 gallon tank.  
They could be a threat to your fry or eggs.    
Good luck in your set up.   
John Wubbolt




N.tansvestitus

by Frauley/Elson <fraulels/minet.ca>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

The first time I had transvestitus fry, I decided I couldn't risk losing
them, so I hatched and raised some on my own, away from the parents. 
Only the female, smart cookie that she was, had placed her eggs in 2
different nests. The ones she raised survived beautifully and grew twice
as fast as mine, so I gave the babies back. My kidnapped ones caught up
to their siblings and all was well.
Taught me a lesson, that did.
-Gary (outsmarted by a fish and glad of it, again)




RE: spawning?

by BigJohnW/webtv.net (John Wubbolt)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999
To: apisto/admin.listbox.com

You wanted to hear about Parental Instinct in fish that were "pulled" as
eggs from their parents.   Well here goes.   My #1 breeder pair of
Cacatuoides Double Reds are still living very well with 6 month old fry
in their tank and haven't caused deaths or harm to any offspring. Any
this is the batch were I got close to 90% males.    So Poppa just loves
his children, were as his poppa ( who incidently was the fish that just
loved to eat eggs) didn't allow any fry in his tank.    Natural Instinct
isn't something that you are I as Aquarist are going to change in one or
two generations of captively bred fish that Mother Nature imprinted in
the genes of our fish for millions of years.    So how's that for
Parental Instinct.    Mr Data plot a course for starbase 12986 and
engage.

John




spawning?

by Fredrik.Ljungberg/saab.se
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999
To: apisto/admin.listbox.com

Hi John 

You definitely have a point in that we can't change in 50 years what
Mother N has taken 1000+ to imprint. But, you can't take just two
fish and draw conclusions from that either. I do think that capt.
bred fish, esp. those that are raised artificially, get worse at 
raising their fry in general. I've had both wildcaught and captive 
bred pairs of the same species and the wildcaught are almost always 
easier to breed. It may not be because of parental instinct but 
something does happen from wildcaught and 20 generations on.

You always have variation, some are better at brood care than others
and in nature the better breeders will survive. With our articifial
methods we side-step that and give all genes a future, thus the 
not-so-good breeders survive as well. 


//Fredrik


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spawning?

by BigJohnW/webtv.net (John Wubbolt)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999
To: apisto/admin.listbox.com

Hello Fredrik
I guess I have to disagree with you on the point that fish that may have
been artificially raised aren't as good parents as those that might not
have been.   I presently have 5 different pairs of apistos that are
toting fry around their tanks that I know were artificially reared away
from their parents.   These aren't just good breeders but great parents.
I don't always rear fry away from  their parents but in a few instances
I do "steal" the wigglers away from the parents to insure I'm going to
get alot of fry.   I nor you, can change this instinct to breed and care
for their off spring, certainly isn't going to happen in our life times.
I know many people don't like doing what I sometimes do, but sometimes I
feel it's necessary or I wouldn't do it.   This doesn't mean the fish
suffer at all.

John




spawning?

by BigJohnW/webtv.net (John Wubbolt)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999
To: apisto/admin.listbox.com

Hello Fredrik
I guess I have to disagree with you on the point that fish that may have
been artificially raised aren't as good parents as those that might not
have been.   I presently have 5 different pairs of apistos that are
toting fry around their tanks that I know were artificially reared away
from their parents.   These aren't just good breeders but great parents.
I don't always rear fry away from  their parents but in a few instances
I do "steal" the wigglers away from the parents to insure I'm going to
get alot of fry.   I nor you, can change this instinct to breed and care
for their off spring, certainly isn't going to happen in our life times.
I know many people don't like doing what I sometimes do, but sometimes I
feel it's necessary or I wouldn't do it.   This doesn't mean the fish
suffer at all.

John




spawning?

by "Helen Burns" <helen.burns/bigwig.net>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999
To: <apisto/admin.listbox.com>

John,
I am one of those people you are talking about.  I cannot see any reason
which justifies removing spawns from the parents.  I think anyone who makes
a practice of this is in the hobby for all the wrong reasons - money.  I
have no doubts the fish do suffer and can cause, I am sure the bond of a
pair of breeding cichlids to be broken.  This subject keeps coming up on
this list which makes me think that many wish the females to breed like
'battery hens' and in my opinion this is all wrong.
Helen

>in a few instances I do "steal" the wigglers away from the parents to
insure I'm going to
get alot of fry.
I know many people don't like doing what I sometimes do, but sometimes I
feel it's necessary or I wouldn't do it.   This doesn't mean the fish
suffer at all.
John<




spawning?

by Frauley/Elson <fraulels/minet.ca>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999
To: apisto/admin.listbox.com

I sometimes pull fry or steal eggs when the breeders are old or
uncertain, and I'm not done watching the species. You can only learn
about your apistos if you have them to observe. If you start with one
pair, then you'll learn about that pair, but you get more surprises with
a few generations.
Nine times out of ten, I let the parents raise their fry. I don't think
there's a principle involved - the choices are pragmatic. By predating
these fish from the wild, we've altered things completely anyway. I'd
steal eggs, but I'd never keep a pair of apistos in a 5 gallon tank.
Apistos are pretty, but it's behavior we're after here, and I think it's
reasonable to do what seems logical to keep 'em behaving.
If a male does the deed and heads for the next planet a la Capt Kirk,
maybe that spawn will give someone ten males to do different things.
-Gary


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spawning?

by Mike & Diane Wise <apistowise/bewellnet.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999
To: apisto/admin.listbox.com



"Travis, J.M." wrote:

>
> Anyway, my main point is that if we hope to retain the behavioural and
> morphological characteristics of wild caught fish, even after many
> generations of captive breeding, then we have to exercise care in the
> conditions in which we keep our fish. Their environment should be as natural
> as possible and removing young is the antithesis of this!
>
> Justin

Is fry/egg predation in the wild that much different from removing fry/eggs in
captivity?

Mike (I'm too lazy; let Mom take care of 'em) Wise

>
>
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RE: unusual behaviour

by Scot Gillespie <Scot.Gillespie/epsedin.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000
To: "'apisto/majordomo.pobox.com'" <apisto/majordomo.pobox.com>

OK folks, you are perfectly free to disbelieve this, I am still a bit
sceptical.

About six weeks ago I got a pair of Cr. Reganies from Helen Burns, with
Helen estimating that they would bread in about three to four weeks. As I
was going to be away for the Christmas period I placed them in a 48 x 12 x
15 with some Keyholes, Cardinals, Corys and Mollies with the view to moving
them into a breading tank after I returned. The breading tank was previously
the home to some A. nijsenni, but the female had terminally beaten up her
mate, so she was moved in beside the pikes in the 4'foot tank, and a plec
was put into the breading tank to chomp back on some of the algae.

All was fine on my return, but I left it to last weekend before moving the
pikes to their new home, just to check they were 'not up to anything'. The
were not showing any signs of being particularly territorial etc, but I
guessed that the female was a bit less gravid so must have spawned and the
eggs came to nothing. So on Saturday they got relocated. 

>From that point on the female A. nijsenni got a bit more territorial, and
here yellowness went up a few notches of intensity, but I just put that down
to her finding a bit territory she didn't want give up. That was until last
night when I returned home.

Nanny nijsenni was herding about 40 to 50 fry, and they were responding to
her body movements, 'hit the dust', 'shoal up' and 'follow me', so
imprinting must have taken place. But I'm still getting my head round this,
I might be a bit more cold logical about this later on today, but I have my
doubts.

Last night I left nanny and the kids in the 4 foot, as she is doing a
traditional nijsenni parental job.

Scot




RE: unusual behaviour

by Scot Gillespie <Scot.Gillespie/epsedin.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000
To: "'apisto/majordomo.pobox.com'" <apisto/majordomo.pobox.com>

Hi, John.
I'm in about two minds just now over pulling the fry, which is not my usual
course of action. As you pointed out the wild card is how strong the
imprinting is from the nanny's side. With domesticated animals this sort of
thing is not that uncommon - getting chickens to hatch duck eggs etc., but I
did not expect to see it in apistos and not where it is so unmanaged. Mind
you the world is full of tales of discus herding daphnia.

If anyone is the wiser (Helen) one factor I'd like to resolve, is at what
stage of development the eggs/fry were in the time frame from Saturday 19:00
when the pikes came out given that yesterday (Monday) pre 18:00 the nanny
was herding the fry (temp 80F, pH 6.8, total hardness 4ppm).

A few factors I've dismissed at present:
Male nijsenni sperm could not be present, male was in the same tank but that
was over eight weeks ago.
The fry are herding with nanny, thus they are not cory, cardinal and
definitely not molly.
They are not keyhole, as the territory which the nanny had claimed prior to
seeing her with the fry was a bogwood 'cave' area, and as such not a keyhole
spawning type area. Also the keyholes have never shown any sign of being
gravid or spawning.
They are not hybrid, prior to their removal the pikes did not 'associate'
with the nijsenni.

I would take development photos, but I can see Denise's face when I tell her
I want a 200mm macro lens along with the sixteen tanks I've just cudgelled
out of her.




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unusual behaviour-Nijsseni, Regani

by "Helen Burns" <helen.burns/bigwig.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000
To: <apisto/majordomo.pobox.com>

Scott,
I am trying to get my head round this also!  First of all congratulations
but I am a wee bit confused as to why the Regani pair didn't object to you
when you were catching them when they had fry in the tank.
Very soon you will know the age of the fry as at 5 days old the fry have the
longitudinal stripe from nose to tail that was not present the day before.
Feed the fry well with newly hatched brine shrimp and they grow at a
remarkable rate (the Nijsseni female will get the fright of her life).
Incidentally your F1 Creni. Regani pair were born 5th August.
Helen
> OK folks, you are perfectly free to disbelieve this, I am still a bit
> sceptical.
>
> About six weeks ago I got a pair of Cr. Reganies from Helen Burns, with
> Helen estimating that they would bread in about three to four weeks. As I
> was going to be away for the Christmas period I placed them in a 48 x 12 x
> 15 with some Keyholes, Cardinals, Corys and Mollies with the view to
moving
> them into a breading tank after I returned. The breading tank was
previously
> the home to some A. nijsenni, but the female had terminally beaten up her
> mate, so she was moved in beside the pikes in the 4'foot tank, and a plec
> was put into the breading tank to chomp back on some of the algae.
>
> All was fine on my return, but I left it to last weekend before moving the
> pikes to their new home, just to check they were 'not up to anything'. The
> were not showing any signs of being particularly territorial etc, but I
> guessed that the female was a bit less gravid so must have spawned and the
> eggs came to nothing. So on Saturday they got relocated.
>
> >From that point on the female A. nijsenni got a bit more territorial, and
> here yellowness went up a few notches of intensity, but I just put that
down
> to her finding a bit territory she didn't want give up. That was until
last
> night when I returned home.
>
> Nanny nijsenni was herding about 40 to 50 fry, and they were responding to
> her body movements, 'hit the dust', 'shoal up' and 'follow me', so
> imprinting must have taken place. But I'm still getting my head round
this,
> I might be a bit more cold logical about this later on today, but I have
my
> doubts.
>
> Last night I left nanny and the kids in the 4 foot, as she is doing a
> traditional nijsenni parental job.
>
> Scot
>
>
>
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RE: unusual behaviour-Nijsseni, Regani (off-line)

by Scot Gillespie <Scot.Gillespie/epsedin.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000
To: "'apisto/majordomo.pobox.com'" <apisto/majordomo.pobox.com>

Hi Helen.
I was going to phone you last night, and was searching for your number when
this came up.

Catching them was a doodle, mind you their minds could have been elsewhere,
it was a case of net in - place underneath - lift up, they obviously didn't
notice it as a threat. I suppose it should have twigged with me at that
point something was strange. I'll have to get some brine shrimp on the go
tonight, as I wasn't expecting any new broods, and last night was a bit
confusing - I got about two hours sleep once my brain switched off.

The size of fry is smaller than most dwarfs I have seen, and a notch or so
smaller than I would expect from nijsenni, no sign I can see of egg sacks.
I'll watch for the line.

By the way, Denise spent last night laughing at me and the fry. I don't know
what she reckoned was the most intelligent.

Any miss spelling, bad grammar, incoherence etc can all be blamed on the
lack of sleep.




unusual behaviour

by Frauley/Elson <fraulels/minet.ca>
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000
To: apisto/majordomo.pobox.com

I have used this info well. All my apistos have been informed that if
they harm their mates, they will be expected to raise Crenicichla fry.
You've never seen so much fright coloration!
I believe the violence will end.
Gary
> Last night I left nanny and the kids in the 4 foot, as she is doing a
> traditional nijsenni parental job.




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This page was last updated 02 July 2000