The Krib
Apistogramma/Dwarf Cichlids
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The Krib
Apistogramma/Dwarf Cichlids
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Matt......I am no expert on apistos (yet?...:-)), but I found your comment that apistos live in densly planted territories. I really don't think so. I've spoken to 4 people who have actually been in the Amazon and smaller off-shoots and virtually all of them agreed that where apisto live is not some beautiful underwater "Aquarium Beautiful". Quite the opposite they live in leave choked streams where there are literally feet of dead and decaying leaves. Yes, occasionally the collectors go into the sides of the streams where there is some live vegetation, but I really think that the "myth" (my word) of the planted tank simply is refering to hiding places. Some of my most productive apisto tanks have nothing but 1/4-1/2" of fine sand and enough clay pottery to choke a horse......and there is nary a plant to be seen for 2-3 tanks from that tank. Now don't get me wrong. Plants do a very good job of substituting for the leaf litter "hiding places"........but I really don't think that even the majority of the apistos come from what you would call a "planted" area. In speaking with Dave Soraes for instance, he said that he would be knee deep in leaf-litter and not a plant in sight and he would dip the net in the litter and up would come dozens of apistos.........he was not trying to indicate that collecting was just a matter of dipping a net but rather that the apisto habitat is not what people think it is.....Comments guys?? Us landlocked guys need some help here...What was your experience? Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
Ed Pon wrote: > I remember hearing this at a David Soares lecture on apistos. David > recommended using oak leaves. I don't have a convenient source of oak > leaves handy and I'm not sure about the eventual decay of the dead oak > leaves--so plants appear to be the way to go. I have been kicking > around an idea for quite some time about finding some irregularly > formed, flattish pieces of plastice that can kind of take the place oak > leaves. I haven't figured out where to find something like that yet. > Anybody got any ideas? I can see it now - commercially produced brown plastic mats of leaf litter! I'd certainly try it. Until then maybe you could buy everyone's old brittle broken down plastic plants that always appear at fish club auctions. Just dump them into a tank. Gravel cleaning would be hell, I bet. Most apistos probably live in leaf litter only because that's the only biotope available. Where aquatic plants occur in the wild one usually finds predators lurking in the weeds. Where these predator are rare you usually find various catfish and larger medium-size cichlids. The dwarfs are pushed out. Apistos are usually found with plants in floating meadows and among the roots of water hyacinths and water lettuce, where they are living among the dangling roots and not on the bottom. Mike Wise > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. > For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, > email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. > Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
Last year I tried a lot of different alternatives to sand or gravel. I found that a 2-3" layer of Beech leaves over a thin layer of small gravel with small branches and cones from Alder was absolutely beautiful. The Beech reddish leaf colour made my A. agassizii totally disappearing and I suddenly understood that their marvellous coloration not only is for our pleasure but also a good camouflage J. After a few month the leaf begin to dissolve and has to be replaced. When the female spawned she lost them all within a month, or thats what I thought and stopped feeding them. When she still showed protective behaviour after another month I searched the tank and found two not to small babies. They had been eating something under the leafs, maybe some leftover blood worm now and then kept them going for more than a month? Daniel Eriksson ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
About leaves:
I live in Wilmington, DE, USA, and have access to plenty of Oak
leaves. Have used them in the apisto tank, however, after a cople of
months they break down into small pieces. Some will siphon out, some are
too big. Basically an unsightly mess. I think that leaf litter from
aquatic plants would do a better job.
However, on a short term basis, a tank 1/4 full of Oak leaves might be
a great place to try to put some size on apisto babies. George
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I just prepared a tank decorated with lots of leaves, mostly oak, and plenty of bogwood for a pair of juvenile norberti that were given to me by Kathy Olsen. The effect is beautiful and seems to match the description of the type locality closely. There are several white cloud dithers that stay above the leaves except when trying to spawn. The apistos hang out in the leaves. The female is good at hiding in between them when the male becomes aggressive. I tried a couple of different fluorescent tubes in this tank. I ended up preferring one that emphasized the blues and reds over a daylight spectrum (which I use in my tanks with plants). The white-clouds, wood and leaves have a rich red or red-brown color which contrasts with the blue and orange of the norberti. In short, I'm happy and the fish seem happy. Lars ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
Although there is an American Beech, they are uncommon and rarely grown as shade trees in cities. You'll have to find them in your local deciduous forest (about 1200 mile from me). On the other hand, I've found that well prepared sage brush makes wonderful brushy driftwood snags. Mike Wise Barrie Haughian wrote: > where do you get these leaves from? I have heard lots about them, but have never > known where to get them.....thanks > > Patrick > > daniel.eriksson wrote: > > > Last year I tried a lot of different alternatives to sand or > > gravel. I found that a 2-3" layer of Beech leaves over a thin > > layer of small gravel with small branches and cones from Alder was > > absolutely beautiful. The Beech reddish leaf colour made my A. > > agassizii totally disappearing and I suddenly understood that > > their marvellous coloration not only is for our pleasure but also > > a good camouflage J. > > > > After a few month the leaf begin to dissolve and has to be > > replaced. > > > > When the female spawned she lost them all within a month, or > > thats what I thought and stopped feeding them. When she still > > showed protective behaviour after another month I searched the > > tank and found two not to small babies. They had been eating > > something under the leafs, maybe some leftover blood worm now and > > then kept them going for more than a month? > > > > Daniel Eriksson > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. > > For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, > > email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. > > Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. > For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, > email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. > Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
Hi Mike and all, >Most apistos probably live in leaf litter only because that's the only biotope >available. Where aquatic plants occur in the wild one usually finds predators >lurking in the weeds. Where these predator are rare you usually find various >catfish and larger medium-size cichlids. The dwarfs are pushed out. >Apistos are >usually found with plants in floating meadows and among the roots of water >hyacinths and water lettuce, where they are living among the dangling roots and >not on the bottom. > >Mike Wise > I have only had the fortune of observing Apistos and Nannacara in the wild on one occasion. But in this instance, both Apistogramma sp. cf. ortmanni and Nannacara aurocephalus were living in aquatic and submerged terrestrial vegetation along the sides of the main channel of a small rainforest stream. No floating plants, no leaf litter. In fact, the whole scene gave the impression of a nicely planted, community aquarium- apistos and loricariids hiding in the aquatic plants, schools of Hemmigrammus tetras cruising in the mid-water. The top-dog of this fish community appeared to be Hoplias- not the best addition to a community aquarium. But its presence did not seem to deter the dwarf cichlids from residing in the plants. Best to all. - Steve Waldron ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
>Ed, Pon wrote: > > In the past couple of weeks, leaf litter became a topic. There was > mention > of people using beech and oak leaves. Are there other types of trees > which have leaves and/or branches which can be safely used as > leaf litter for apistos? Did anybody do any experiments in this regard > that they wouldn't mind sharing? Hi Ed, I have used Coccoloba uvifera leaves with great success. The common name of this plant (tree) is the Sea Grape. The leaves are olive-green and very stiff. When they have been soaked in water for a while, they turn a rich brown colour and become water logged. Unfortunately, this plant is not common in homes as it is really a tree, however, it may be worth cultivating a small one, if you have the space. I have access to this plant at my work (Vancouver Aquarium) in the Amazon Gallery where we have four of the trees. They regularly have leaves falling off. I have had Satanoperca leucosticta and Microgeophagus ramirezi use them for spawning. Now that I have some Apistogramma (from a recent trip to Peru), I'll collect some again for them to use. Hope this helps. Lee ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
The preference for beech and oak leaves is due to the type of trees that they are. They prefer acid soils, so presumably the leaves are more acidic, too (have more tannins in them). The tropics of South America has a great number of fig (Ficus) trees and these form a great proportion of the leaf litter. They have tough leaves that hold up well under water. But don't run over to your ornamental Ficus and start stripping leaves. Fig leaves have a sap much like latex and is very toxic to fish in a confined volume of water, i.e. an aquarium. Mike Wise Ed Pon wrote: > In the past couple of weeks, leaf litter became a topic. There was > mention > of people using beech and oak leaves. Are there other types of trees > which have leaves and/or branches which can be safely used as > leaf litter for apistos? Did anybody do any experiments in this regard > that they wouldn't mind sharing? > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. > For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, > email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. > Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto-at-majordomo.pobox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request-at-majordomo.pobox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
Hello, all
I'm not new to the list, but until now haven't had much to say.
I've collected dried oak leaves in the autumn for years, and kept them in a trash bag throughout the rest of the seasons to use with most SA cichlids.
Many Apistos, Nannacara, and a couple Dicrossus have spawned on the leaves, often when live plants were available, and as far as I know, there's no down side, other than the eventual clean-up.
Just my two cents
Don
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Les,
Last autumm I couldn't get oak leaves but managed to get Beech leaves =
which I beleive serves the same purpose. A few months ago I aquired a =
group of adult Taeniacara candidi and wanted to lower my pH in their 36" =
tank. Using the leaves the pH gradually lowered to the level I wanted =
pH4.8. The leaves make a very pleasing sight as the adults and fry have =
plenty natural cover. I also used the leaves in my Crenicichla regani =
(dwarf pikes) tank as they also require a very low pH.
Helen
Scotland
=20
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Why oak leaves specifically? Can other types of leaves be used =
(i.e.. maple)?
=20
Les Scott
=20
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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Les,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>Last autumm I =
couldn't get=20
oak leaves but managed to get Beech leaves which I beleive serves the =
same=20
purpose. A few months ago I aquired a group of adult Taeniacara =
candidi=20
and wanted to lower my pH in their 36" tank. Using the leaves =
the pH=20
gradually lowered to the level I wanted pH4.8. The leaves make a =
very=20
pleasing sight as the adults and fry have plenty natural cover. I =
also=20
used the leaves in my Crenicichla regani (dwarf pikes) tank as they also =
require=20
a very low pH.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Helen</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Scotland</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Why oak leaves =
specifically? Can other=20
types of leaves be used (i.e.. maple)?</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Les Scott</FONT></DIV>
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On Thu, 22 Jul 1999 20:07:00 -0700 (PDT), Erik Olson wrote: > > Why oak leaves specifically? Can other types of leaves be used (i.e.. > > maple)? > They don't disintegrate into the tank very quickly compared to other leaf > types. The same goes for beech leaves and since they have a more neutral shape I prefer them. Makes a tank look a bit more natural. But it's primarily a matter of taste. Matthijs e-mail: emwee@wish.net emwee@lindeman.org fido: 2:283/6.7 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
>From what I understand, the leaves of Ficus (fig) trees contain a latex like sap that is toxic to fish. They are, however, one of the most common group of trees in the tropics and much of the leaf litter found in tropical streams is made from Ficus leaves. There isn't any problem in Nature because of the continuous flow of fresh water. Unless you do a LOT of water changes, I'd suggest you look elsewhere. On a side note, the reason for people recommending oak and beech leaves is because they normally come for areas with acid soil conditions (where their leaves tend to acidify the soil). European aquarists prefer beech leaves because they look more like the tropical tree leaves. North American aquarists prefer oak leaves because North America doesn't have many beech trees. Mike Wise Cory and Susanne Williamson wrote: > We don't have oak trees here in Vancouver, but I have a > Ficus tree(small) in my house that drops what look like > pretty hardy leaves- does anyone think that they might be > a problem? I am thinking they might work well since the > Ficus is a tropical plant. Cory Williamson
Edison C. Yap wrote: > > I have an Avocado Tree with very broad leaves and some coconut tree. I > want to give these leaves a try, could anyone help me on how to check if > these leaves are good for fishes? > > Thanks, > > Edison Edison, I'd do a little research, maybe by contacting a local botanist or experienced garden maniac. I use oak leaves not for decoration (they break down after a short period of rich brown beauty) but because they are high in tannins. Just leaves would be pretty worthless. As well, I only use dead leaves. I may 'kill' them by picking them off the tree when they are about to fall, but I don't touch them until they are crispy. There are many other leaves I could use, but they wouldn't serve the precise function I believe I'm serving with the oaks. The leaves themselves are mildly decorative, but the oak leaves give the water a rich coloration with a clarity and brightness that peat doesn't do with my water. The fish like the leaves, and I like what the tannin rich leaves do. If I were trying this in an environment without oaks or beeches, I'd look for a tree with similar chemical properties. -Gary ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
Edison, Break open a fresh leaf from the tree. If it has a white milky sap inside it probably shouldn't be used in a fish tank. Mike Wise "Edison C. Yap" wrote: > I have an Avocado Tree with very broad leaves and some coconut tree. I > want to give these leaves a try, could anyone help me on how to check if > these leaves are good for fishes? > > Thanks, > > Edison > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. > For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, > email apisto-request@listbox.com. > Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
Hi, I have a killie-like story about some apistos. About 2 months ago, I set up a 30 inch 23 gallon tank for two species of apisto, as I had a temporary overcrowding problem. To manage any aggro, I threw in some of my dried oak leaves, from the secret stock in the bag under the njisseni tank. I had cf juruense and cf gibbiceps in there, a pair of each. The gibbs started to beat up on the juruense, so after two weeks of their having been together, I moved the gibbs to a larger tank. The female juruense died of injuries, and I left the spectacular male on his own with 5 N beckfordi pencils for a month, til I got a new female today. After I put her in, I suddenly saw a gaggle of half a dozen juvenile cf. gibbiceps come cruising out, healthy, happy and hefty. I guess they were easier to breed than I thought... It says something for a leafy habitat though. Gary ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
Gary, I couldn't get oak leaves but did manage to acquire beech leaves which serves the same purpose in a tank. My 36" tank I housed Taeniacara candidi, the floor of this tank was 'littered' with the leaves. This gave great security for the fish and their fry. The leaves plus bogwood makes a very 'natural' looking habitat, the dwarfs love it. Helen > I have a killie-like story about some apistos. About 2 months ago, I set > up a 30 inch 23 gallon tank for two species of apisto, as I had a > temporary overcrowding problem. To manage any aggro, I threw in some of > my dried oak leaves, from the secret stock in the bag under the njisseni > tank. I had cf juruense and cf gibbiceps in there, a pair of each. The > gibbs started to beat up on the juruense, so after two weeks of their > having been together, I moved the gibbs to a larger tank. The female > juruense died of injuries, and I left the spectacular male on his own > with 5 N beckfordi pencils for a month, til I got a new female today. > After I put her in, I suddenly saw a gaggle of half a dozen juvenile cf. > gibbiceps come cruising out, healthy, happy and hefty. I guess they were > easier to breed than I thought... > It says something for a leafy habitat though. > Gary > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. > For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, > email apisto-request@listbox.com. > Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
As a possible alternative to oak leaves: Several years ago when living in the San Francisco area, Brian Wolinski suggested magnolia leaves. They were working great for him, so I tried them and was very pleased with the result. I'd suggest using the dried-up, old brown leaves that accumulate under the trees. They are sturdier than oak leaves and, I believe, last longer under water. They also have sort of a tropical look. They tend to curl a little bit and make lots of hidey holes and caves for the apistos. I must be getting old; I can't recall whether they sank immediately, or whether we boiled them first, but getting them to sink to the bottom did not present a problem. Scott >From: David Sanchez <barbax2@yahoo.com> >Reply-To: apisto@majordomo.pobox.com >To: apisto@majordomo.pobox.com >Subject: Re: leaf litter wonders >Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 09:11:06 -0800 (PST) > >Thanks a ton David I have two big oak trees next to my >house that are going to become my best source for >caves LOL I am thinking of using the leaves in a bare >bottom tank do you think this would work well? Thanks >for your advice. > > > >===== >David Sanchez >Orlando, FL >http://www.mindspring.com/~barbax >barbax@mindspring.com >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. >Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. >For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, >email apisto-request@listbox.com. >Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List >Archives"! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, email apisto-request@listbox.com. Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
Ed, I don't know anything about the effect of Magnolia leaves on the water, but the ones I am familiar with have large waxy leaves. Many tropical trees have similar leave that leach latex-like sap that isn't very healthy in a closed environment of a tank. I think I'd try them first on something you won't regret losing. Mike Wise Ed Pon wrote: > Does anyone know if Magnolia leaves will affect the ph. I just happen to > have a Magnolia tree right in front of my house but have been afraid to try > using the leaves. > > >Scott Olson wrote: > > > > > > As a possible alternative to oak leaves: > > > > > > Several years ago when living in the San Francisco area, Brian Wolinski > > > suggested magnolia leaves. They were working great for him, so I tried > >them > > > and was very pleased with the result. > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This is the apistogramma mailing list, apisto@listbox.com. > For instructions on how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help, > email apisto-request@listbox.com. > Search http://altavista.digital.com for "Apistogramma Mailing List Archives"!
Good sunday to you all,
The magnolia leaves that Brian Wolinski used are a species commonly used as
an ornamental here in the S.F. bay area- I'm no botanist, but it is
definitely not the southern Magnolia (i.e. leaves are smaller,not very
aromatic, no thick latex like sap). When dried and cured the leaves are
very woody, big white flowers in the spring. It (like most plants in the
bay area) is an exotic. I have never used it in an Apisto tank but it
serves well as a substrate for my poison arrow frogs.
I recently tried using tan oak leaves (a California native, the tannin rich
extract was once used to tan leather) in an Apisto tank and though this is
just an anecdotal correlation- a few days after I added the leaves the
behavior of my apistos became noticeably different- the dominant male
became very aggressive and killed the other male in the tank and spawned
with one of the females shortly after. I didn't test the water chemistry
but likely a pH drop and was careful to only add a few leaves to the tank.
I have bags full of them from an old growth stand in pristine
redwood/chaparral habitat at my family's cabin- will happily trade for some
Apistogramma jurensis :>
Steven J. Waldron
http://WWW.ANURA.ORG
"Natural History, Captive Husbandry, Conservation and
Biophilia of Tropical Frogs"
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There have been frequent threads over the years as to why oak leaves are preferable to other species leaves, especially maple leaves, for tank litter in Apisto tanks. Yesterday I ran across an interesting passage in a book I'm reading (_The Vegetation of Wisconsin: An Ordination of Plant Communities_ by John T. Curtis, 1959) that sheds some light on the subject. In describing the life cycle of the Sugar Maple, the dominant tree in the Southern Mesic Forest, he notes:
"Another effect of the leaves is bought about by their high content of basic nutrient elements at the time of leaf shedding. . . . the nutrients which have been pulled into the leaf by the transpiration stream during the summer remain there and are not withdrawn into the trunks as in the oaks and many other species. When the leaves are shed, they contain high levels of calcium, magnesium and potassium.
The high base content of the maple leaves is correlated with the ease of breakdown by the millipedes, fungi and other soil biota."
So the base elements in maple leaves would likely cause them to quickly degenerate as well as release elements that would cause the water to become harder more alkaline, or at least prevent it from become soft and acidic like oak leaves do.
Bill Vannerson
McHenry, IL
http://vannerson.home.att.net/
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